Taurus33 Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Wondering if anyone knows for sure when the term "onager" was first used to refer to small catapults. A knowledgable friend tells me that this "wild ass" term didn't originate until the 4th century AD. However, I've read books and articles set well before that (including Julius Caesar's campaigns) that mention onagers. Any thoughts on this? Also, what would this artillery piece have been called before that term originated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 (edited) The device (or something similar) was around earlier but probably under the name 'Scorpio'. The term Onager does appear to have been used at a later date. However, I can't think of any sources off the top of my head that would give a definitive answer. Edited July 14, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 As I mentioned elsewhere LEG II AVG are in the neighbourhood soon , the artllery unit Optio might be at the next display so I will enquire as to sources for terminology versus era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I'd always thought that a 'scorpio' was a sort of arrow propeller (bellybuster), while an 'onager' was a small catspult.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I'd always thought that a 'scorpio' was a sort of arrow propeller (bellybuster), while an 'onager' was a small catspult.? I was puzzling over that as well, wasnt the term meant to refer to the recoil from the mechanism-hence suggesting a particularly hefty piece of kit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I'd always thought that a 'scorpio' was a sort of arrow propeller (bellybuster), while an 'onager' was a small catspult.? Yes & yes. But in late antiquity 'onager' was synonymous with the scorpio as you described. That I think is the key to the issue Taurus33 is encountering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Maybe from Ammianus Marcellinus(?)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurus33 Posted July 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Thanks to all who are posting on this. Here's the reason this came up... One of my tech advisors for a novel I'm working on (Sander Van Dorst for those of you who know him-- a VERY knowledgable chap) has mentioned that Ammianus Marcellinus (23.4.4ff) makes note that "onager" was a newly introduced term in the 4th century. Sander's info has always been very accurate. The only reason I'm questioning this single item is because I've seen the word in SO many different Roman time periods, I was surprised to hear this. So, I'm just double checking with you other Roman military aces out there to see if anyone has seen any other sources that say something to the contrary. Thanks again. Taurus (Jim Duffy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 You have an excellent man in Sander. Did you hear the term from 'modern' writers or from ancient writers? That might be the answer to your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurus33 Posted July 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 These were modern books. As an example, the Time/Life book "Imperial Rome" has a six-page section called Roman Supremacy In The Siege, and specifically discusses Julius Caesar's siege of Avaricum in 52 BC. It discusses "onagers" in numerous passages. I've also read a number of novels which refer to the smaller catapults as onagers, in a wide variety of time periods. I know novels aren't the best reference, but the term just seemed so prevalent, I was surprised to hear it should only be used in the late Empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 These were modern books. As an example, the Time/Life book "Imperial Rome" has a six-page section called Roman Supremacy In The Siege, and specifically discusses Julius Caesar's siege of Avaricum in 52 BC. It discusses "onagers" in numerous passages. I've also read a number of novels which refer to the smaller catapults as onagers, in a wide variety of time periods. I know novels aren't the best reference, but the term just seemed so prevalent, I was surprised to hear it should only be used in the late Empire. It MAY be that the moderns are using it indiscriminately. If the ancients didn't use the term from the onset, it might be because they felt that their readers understood it without their saying so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurus33 Posted July 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Very true, Gaius. Since no one came up with anything different here, I'll go with my man Sander's ruling. Guess I have a lot of "search & replace" work to do on the manuscript Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Very true, Gaius. Since no one came up with anything different here, I'll go with my man Sander's ruling. Guess I have a lot of "search & replace" work to do on the manuscript Monday. Do it in a way that doesn't put your reader in your present position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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