The Great Raid

[Virgil61]

Just watched "The Great Raid". Not a bad movie based on real events depicted in the "Ghost Soldiers". It's about the real life rescue of a Japanese prison camp full of Americans and a few Brits in 1945. Nearing the end of the war the Japanese had put out directives that POWs were to be executed so as not to be used as witnesses to atrocities. The real story is quite dramatic on it's own with just those characters also included in the film. It's really a disappointment they had to include a made-up romance interposing another real life character, Margaret Utinsky, into this film. It slowed the film down and drew attention away from what could have been a more fleshed out portrayal of the mission.

 

Because of the inclusion of a fake romance they had to leave out a few dramatic events such as the march back with the POWs through an area held by Huks who were anti-American, anti-Japanese and rivals with the Filipino guerillas who played a key role in the rescue. I'll give the film credit in that it showed how key the Filipino guerrilla leader, Captain Pajota, was to the effort. He suggested delaying the action for 24 hours to allow a Japanese division to travel through the area, using cattle drawn wagons to pull the wounded and having a P-61 buzz the camp to distract attention while the Rangers moved in.

 

What also irritated me were reading some of the reviews which suggested that one of the faults of the movie was a grim portrayal of the Japanese. Apparently the volumes of POW oral and written histories outlining atrocities were incorrect, not to mention the War Crimes trials of camp commanders and guards (yeah I know the victors determine guilt but don't bs anyone, their crimes were atrocities on a grander scale than the Allies). Decent enough movie that could've been much better if it would've followed the book in it's entirety.

 

Edit: Here is the Army report on the raid in a pdf, warning slooow server.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Virgil61

[Primus Pilus]

Thanks Virgil,

 

I've been hesitating to see this one because of a fear of misinformation. Sounds like it's worth a look.

 

As an aside. Isn't funny how the only group that history diligently wants to continue frowning upon are the Nazis. Some of the things the Japanese did, not only to the allied prisoners, but to the Chinese as well were horrifying.

[Virgil61]

Thanks Virgil,

 

I've been hesitating to see this one because of a fear of misinformation. Sounds like it's worth a look.

 

As an aside. Isn't funny how the only group that history diligently wants to continue frowning upon are the Nazis. Some of the things the Japanese did, not only to the allied prisoners, but to the Chinese as well were horrifying.

 

This is interesting, after I saw the movie I read an interview with one of the actors who said that the soldiers portraying the Japanese were all Japanese actors. They grew up in the new Japan and the director had difficulty getting them to be brutal to the prisoners, most of them were very hesitant and wanted to act more humane towards them, which says a bit both on how far they've come and how little they've been taught of Japanese atrocities as well.

 

The Germans have done a better job of facing the realities of what they did than the Japanese have. I know the Chinese and Koreans have chimed several times about how little Japanese schools have done to teach the atrocities done by them in the war. There isn't a history of the Pacific War that I've read both old, new, or revisionist that doesn't mention just how brutal they were. Popular opinion is less informed and quite frankly the fact that the holocaust victims were Europeans (survivors or their descendents like Speilberg writing memoirs and making movies) and the liberation of the concentration camps made more of an impact on the Western psyche.

[Primus Pilus]

It is quite interesting how the zealousness of the Japanese soldier mindset made such a complete societal shift into economics.

 

By the by, for any passerbys in this thread. I don't think either Virgil or I are suggesting that only certain parties are guilty of committing acts of brutality in war (Dresden stands out as one for the allies)... its just that the brutality of the Japanese in the Pacific War has been largely ignored in a general history context. (While the horrifying details of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been well documented). However, brutality by the allies is usually treated with a... well the other guy started it mentality.

[Virgil61]

It is quite interesting how the zealousness of the Japanese soldier mindset made such a complete societal shift into economics.

 

By the by, for any passerby's in this thread. I don't think either Virgil or I are suggesting that only certain parties are guilty of committing acts of brutality in war (Dresden stands out as one for the allies)... its just that the brutality of the Japanese in the Pacific War has been largely ignored in a general history context. (While the horrifying details of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been well documented). However, brutality by the allies is usually treated with a... well the other guy started it mentality.

 

I always think of Slaughterhouse 5 by Kurt Vonnegut when I hear Dresden. He was a POW--an infantry scout captured during the Battle of the Bulge--there when the bombing occured and you can just feel the emotional impact it had on him.

 

In response to your first comment, I think the homogenity of culture and the same social mores that made them seem so single-minded in the service of their early empire are the same things that helped them become so successful in the realm of economics.

 

You know although I understand the arguments against Dresden, Nagasaki and Hiroshima in the end part of me feels that a society or people are culpable for the actions of their government and armies, much more so when the atrocities were systematically committed on a large scale rather than small isolated incidents by rogue units. There are a couple of books I've read like Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland and Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust which are somewhat along these lines. I don't even want to go down the road on the subject of Japanese medical experiments conducted on American POWs like multiple amputations on live and alert men just to see how long it would take them to die. For those interested Wikipedia is a decent starting point on Unit 731. POW survival rates are pretty instructive, something like 25% of all Allied POWs died in Japanese camps and only 4% died in Nazi ones. That doesn't allow for Russian and Polish prisoners who were treated worse than dogs by the Germans and died in droves.

 

The first book, Ordinary Men, is especially chilling to me. Most of the men were 'regular guys'; butchers, bakers, accountants, etc and not really Nazi party enthusiasts. They spent much of their time guarding and escorting Jewish and Polish civilian prisoners and were often given orders to to simply kill them, which they carried out. They weren't particularly enthusiastic about the task and few seemed to have any strong anti-semetic or Polish sentiments but they went about lining them up and mowing them down. There's even one minor passage where they're lining up Jews to be shot and meet a group from the battalion's home town of Heidelberg. The guards and the Jews from there began to chit-chat about home, after awhile it was their turn so they marched them out, lined them up and shot 'em. What's chilling is that they were just 'ordinary men' and I think that lesson cuts across cultural lines, in other words it wasn't being German that allowed them to carry out their killings but something along the lines of going along with the peer group you're in which may partially explain the average Japanese soldier's response as well.

 

Hitler's Willing Executioners is much more contraversial and devolves too much from history into an opinion piece for my tastes but still a good read.

[Primus Pilus]

Hitler's Willing Executioners is much more contraversial and devolves too much from history into an opinion piece for my tastes but still a good read.

 

Agreed, I got just about the same context out of the book, and in fact didn't finish it for what I felt was quite a bit of grandstanding.

[Pertinax]

I had this title on 731

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...8902684-7521431

 

but it's a harrowing read-though it should be read.As you all know I have Japanese friends of my own age, the War doesnt seem to exist in their psyche. In my own generation here lots of peoples Fathers and Grandfathers were in the East -and they remember it like it was yesterday morning and burnt into their flesh.

 

The "Willing Executioner's " I found to be like being bludgeoned mentally, none of it felt new but I was left exhausted by the polemic. The film "Come and See" (link below) is one of the best commentaries on einsatzgruppen and Wermacht complicity:it too is very hard to watch ,but it feels emotionally honest.Its had a very limited showing ,perhaps you have been more fortunate in the US ? I urge people to watch it as it is a Russian film devoid of pro-Russian( Stalinist) propoganda.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B...8902684-7521431

[Virgil61]

I had this title on 731

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...8902684-7521431

 

but it's a harrowing read-though it should be read.As you all know I have Japanese friends of my own age, the War doesnt seem to exist in their psyche. In my own generation here lots of peoples Fathers and Grandfathers were in the East -and they remember it like it was yesterday morning and burnt into their flesh.

 

The "Willing Executioner's " I found to be like being bludgeoned mentally, none of it felt new but I was left exhausted by the polemic. The film "Come and See" (link below) is one of the best commentaries on einsatzgruppen and Wermacht complicity:it too is very hard to watch ,but it feels emotionally honest.Its had a very limited showing ,perhaps you have been more fortunate in the US ? I urge people to watch it as it is a Russian film devoid of pro-Russian( Stalinist) propoganda.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B...8902684-7521431

 

I remember a janitor in high school was a survivor of the Bataan Death March. Tall, lanky and sort of quite old guy at the time. I wish now we'd gotten his perspective. In the early 80's I worked with a local old guy in my home town who fought in the Pacific. A bunch of Japanese businessmen came by to check out the grain elevators we manned (picture of it with three storage bins) and where they were shipped wheat for noodles. I'll never forget his reaction was disgust, something like 'I fought those b*st*rds and now they're here'. He was generally a jerk anyway but this was one particularly vitriolic episode.

 

I walked away from living in Russia with a whole new view of the Nazi approach to warfighting in the east. Yeah, I am aware of the Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS and Totenkopf-SS differences but the truth is the Wehrmacht was often as guilty of pulling bs as any other unit.

 

Thanks for the film recommendation maybe I'll try and give my Russian skills a refresher course.

[Pertinax]

AS you have been in the Ukraine, and know of their history , the film will resonate strongly.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Pertinax

[Gaius Octavius]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B...8902684-7521431

 

I remember a janitor in high school was a survivor of the Bataan Death March. Tall, lanky and sort of quite old guy at the time. I wish now we'd gotten his perspective. In the early 80's I worked with a local old guy in my home town who fought in the Pacific. A bunch of Japanese businessmen came by to check out the grain elevators we manned (picture of it with three storage bins) and where they were shipped wheat for noodles. I'll never forget his reaction was disgust, something like 'I fought those b*st*rds and now they're here'. He was generally a jerk anyway but this was one particularly vitriolic episode.

 

 

 

Don't be too hard on the guy you worked with. I have an uncle and a cousin who enlisted in the Marines the day after Pearl Harbor. The stories they told would chill your spine. The Japanese did not consider them humans and thus anything went. MacArthur let these war criminals off the hook because of the 'communist' threat.

A doctor who conducted 'experiments' on Chinese people is now a free multi millionaire. Never prosecuted.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Tobias]

In conjunction with the P.O.W. theme of this discussion, here is a tv series that was on the Australian ABC that you people may be interested in: http://www.abc.net.au/changi/history/default.htm

 

The idea of being taken prisoner had never entered the minds of the young idealistic lads that rushed off to fight for King and Country...

Edited June 9, 2006 by Tobias

[Gaius Octavius]

When Germany surrendered, Eisenhower did not attend the ceremony because of what he saw of the concentration and POW camps. He had his juniors accept the surrender, which was a smack in the face to the Germans. Nonetheless, it was civil. When MacArthur accepted the surrender of the Japanese on the battleship Missouri, it was done civilly. At Singapore, The Japanese commander shoved the surrender papers at the British commander, screamed at him and treated him and his staff as if they were filth. The Japanese commanders set the tone of the war by their actions throughout the war. Not enough of them were hanged.

 

German and Italian POW's in the U.S. were treated quite well. The Italians were given leave to visit relatives in civilian clothes. A friend, a Ranger, went AWOL to visit his sick mother in NYC and got a shirt with a target on its back! Both German and Italian POW's were treated better than their respective U.S. resident aliens and naturalized citizens. Japanese Americans, resident on the west coast, were put into concentration camps, but were not tortured. They even formed regiments which fought valiantly in Europe.

 

Dresden, along with other raids, were political revenge targets on the part of Bomber Harris. They were a waste of precious men and materials.

[Pertinax]

Returning to Virgil's "731" comment earlier, I now find that the other "non-Roman" book I am reading presently

"Toxin"

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...2620765-5794332

 

is a sobering read about public health, washing your hands, making sure sewage is disposed of and the 731 atrocities as part of the evolution of understanding bacterial poisons. There is a great deal here about population morbidity and "plagues" , historically and presently.I feel a blog may be forthcoming.Toxic warfare is of course not new , I was unaware that Hannibal had pots of poisinous snakes hurled onto the King of Pergammon's ships, but lobbing corpses of men and animals into your opponents water supply seems to be a universal and ancient art.

[Rameses the Great]

German and Italian POW's

 

I can understand Italian POWs but I can't imagine German POWs. They look exactly like normal Americans. Actually German now is the most common nationality in America.

 

I'm surprised no one mentioned the horifying events at Nanking. It was so bad a Nazi woman actually hid some Chinese. A Japanese man said, "The general gave me a mechate, and smirking I cut off the heads of the Chinese . There is no excuse for my behaviors that day, I was just a devil."

[Germanicus]

My grandfather, a WWII veteran from New Guinea won't talk about the war.