Dr. Hawass Calls For Return Of Stolen Artifact

[Rameses the Great]

Hmm, I wonder when Egypt will return Alexandria to Macedon.

 

Oh come now that is completely irrelevent. A lot of Greek things were predicated from Egypt, so in essense they should return that back.

 

If Alexandria goes back to Macedonia, then sure as heck America belongs to Britain.

 

I think Hawass is doing a good job bringing everything back.

 

Im confused by this did they steal them or pay for them?

 

Some were paid for but many more were, 'allegedly' never to return.

[Virgil61]

Another side note about Zahi Hawass, here's a Sunday Times article with a less than flattering account of him.

 

Oh, the drama!

 

King Tut tut tut

 

Excerpt:

 

They call him the Pharaoh, the keeper of the pyramids. He rules Egyptology with an iron fist and a censorious tongue. Nobody crosses Zahi Hawass and gets away with it. As the fabulous treasures of Tutankhamun begin a world tour, Richard Girling excavates the conspiracies, conflicts and fears that curse the world of archeology.

 

You might as well ask a eunuch to slag off an emperor. Quite quickly you get tired of asking: phone calls not returned; e-mails not answered; questions ducked. If you're lucky, you might get the odd side-of-mouth hint; but no names, no details.

 

"Nobody of any standing in Egyptology will come out to help you," said one well-known Egyptologist of his colleagues, "because they'd lose their jobs. Sadly, people are cowering round his ankles." He is right. The hugged ankles belong to the most powerful man in archeology, Dr Zahi Hawass, aka Big Zee, secretary-general of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA). It is Hawass who holds the keys to the pyramids, the Valley of the Kings, the Sphinx, Abu Simbel, everything. No Egyptologist

gets in without his permission, and few will chance his anger.

 

You can see why. Hawass is a one-man conflict zone who could start a war in an empty sarcophagus. In 2003, by some accounts (no fact passes unchallenged), Hawass expelled 14 expeditions from the country and, by his own account, denied access to hundreds more. He decides who digs where, and reserves for the SCA

[Primus Pilus]

Hmm, I wonder when Egypt will return Alexandria to Macedon.

 

Oh come now that is completely irrelevent. A lot of Greek things were predicated from Egypt, so in essense they should return that back.

 

If Alexandria goes back to Macedonia, then sure as heck America belongs to Britain.

 

 

 

Ahh, but you just got the point of my stance, without even realizing you got it. Using your logic, it is not Britain, Spain, France or Portugal (Perhaps even the Vikings) that should receive the Americas, but the various native tribes. Is the land itself not part of Iroquios Nation or Sioux heritage? I'll reiterate, where does it begin and where does it end. Surely, there remains some plundered history in Scandanavia that belongs to other Europeans? What happens if an invading army is repulsed? Do the victims of the invasion get to keep any remaining artifact as a symbol of their victory or should they be returned because they are not the original owners?

 

Did Parthia return the eagles of Crassus because Augustus pestered Phraates IV into it out of a sense of guilt and that he was worried about Roman heritage or did he return them because he both respected and feared Roman power?

 

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that items should not be willingly returned under any circumstances, especially if both parties wish to do it out of political or humanitarian harmony. However to be pressured into by a sense of righteous entitlement is what I am finding to be ridiculous. This especially when every nation on earth and ethnic group of people including the requesting nation in question within this thread has skeletons in their own historical closets.

[Tobias]

I'm confused... should we poor misguided yanks leave this land to the our tribal forebears if you Europeans, Asians and Africans will make room for the 280 million of us or so?

 

LOL

Same here in Australia; all of us evil European descendants etc here in Australia would probably have to give all of Australia back to the Aboriginals, and either leave, or ask the Aboriginals if we're allowed to stay. If we can't stay, then i'm sure it'll be a cinch to take the Sydney Harbour Bridge, the Opera House, the MCG etc with us

 

How's Gibraltar by the way? Does it belong to Spain again yet?

Edited June 7, 2006 by Tobias

[tflex]

Im confused by this did they steal them or pay for them?

 

What I meant is many Egyptians sold these items in the black market to Europeans, so they should bare some responsibility too.

 

Also I don't think there is anything wrong with the article that Virgil posted. It's their country, therefore, the authorities should be able to decide who excavates and who doesn't. Thats like in any other country, you need a permission or license. Hawass ended the days of free lancers plundering and vandalizing on their own without the watchful eye of the authorities. Again, I think the colonial powers did what came naturally to them, and there is nothing wrong with that, they won the war and took their prizes. Hawass is doing nothing wrong either by asking for the return of the items.

Edited June 7, 2006 by tflex

[Kosmo]

Egipt will have more turists if they keep them safe. Remember the attacks in Luxor, Sharm el Shaik and Dahab?

 

Much of the gold that barbarians plundered from Rome came from dacian mines, so we, romanians, hold both the latins and the barbarians in debt.

Regarding the return of those from both America's, Australia, RSA, NZ I have some messages "guys don't came back, here it's full, try Antarctica", "girls your welcome". Wait, I think we all should leave Europe to the basque and return to the steppe!

 

We should send to Mr. Hawass all the fake stuff (papyrus, parfume, alabaster cats, "diamonds", Gucii) that the tourists brought from Egipt in the last two centuries.

[Virgil61]

Egipt will have more turists if they keep them safe. Remember the attacks in Luxor, Sharm el Shaik and Dahab?

...

We should send to Mr. Hawass all the fake stuff (papyrus, parfume, alabaster cats, "diamonds", Gucii) that the tourists brought from Egipt in the last two centuries.

 

Egypt had to be the worst place for tourists I've ever seen. Everywhere you go you're just a mark for the vendors in a big way. I've been around the world and I've never seen anything like it. The Egyptian Museum even has 'guide' trying to sell you their services on the outside. That said it's one of the most incredible museums I've ever seen. The Coptic girls on the other hand are very friendly when they find out you're American.

 

I think Hawass is just doing his duty as an Egyptian in trying to get things returned. He and the country have a vested interest, both cultural and economic in doing so. Them tourists are money in Egypt believe me. That said, it'll be a cold day in hell when they get everything back.

 

tflex, I think the point of the article is that he's not considered a fair arbitrator, you kiss his rear and include him in the dig or even give him credit or you don't dig. It's one thing to be the gatekeeper for proper field studies, which brings some quality control. It's quite another to usurp others work or involvement by injecting your own ego into it. I think the article was very clear about the criticism of Hawass lying in that area, it's a criticism I've read a few times.

[Rameses the Great]

tflex, I think the point of the article is that he's not considered a fair arbitrator, you kiss his rear and include him in the dig or even give him credit or you don't dig. It's one thing to be the gatekeeper for proper field studies, which brings some quality control. It's quite another to usurp others work or involvement by injecting your own ego into it. I think the article was very clear about the criticism of Hawass lying in that area, it's a criticism I've read a few times.

 

I believe they should return the Rosetta stone, King Tut's body, and anything that is important to the Egyptians. Thank God we made the pyramids, that is one thing the Europeans will never take with them.

[phil25]

Modern Egupt has absolutely no connection with Pharaonic Egypt - its been a Mameluk state since then, and converted to Islam. The modern state occupies the same geographical area (pretty much) as the old kingdom - but I see no basis for a claim to "own" items removed in the past.

 

Does the modern USA belong to the Souix or the Cherokee, the East Coast Indians etc?

 

Sorry, they lost out. History is harsh and hard.

 

One day, no doubt, after London and Washington have been "sacked" by barbarians, much art etc now in those cities will reside elsewhere or be destroyed. Hitler, as I recall, wanted Nelson's column for Germania (his remodelled Berlin).

 

Unlike a previous poster, I do have a sentimental feeling for the British regalia, but some items do reside abroad or in private collections. But if, in a few hundred years time, they or the Sutton Hoo treasure, were to be in foreign hands I'd say Ok - it's no different to other artistic works by British craftsmen which are no overseas.

 

Finally, I'd just point out that it was british money (Lord Caarnarvon's) and British acumen and persistence that brought to light the treasures of Tutankhamen - which still reside in Cairo.

 

Equally it was french archaeologists who saved the caches of royal mummies and preserved them - as they remain preserved - in Cairo. It was Egyptian fellahin who would have ransacked them for any gold or jewellery, or sold them to collectors. So please don't let's get pious.

 

Phil

[tflex]

tflex, I think the point of the article is that he's not considered a fair arbitrator, you kiss his rear and include him in the dig or even give him credit or you don't dig. It's one thing to be the gatekeeper for proper field studies, which brings some quality control. It's quite another to usurp others work or involvement by injecting your own ego into it. I think the article was very clear about the criticism of Hawass lying in that area, it's a criticism I've read a few times.

 

I think what I'm trying to say is, his actions are only a reaction to the chaos and theft that ensued in the past. Tomb robbers and vandalism were rampant before, and both Europeans and Egyptians contributed to this. I think he's still sore about that, and probably wants to show the Europeans in his own way, that he's in charge here, the treasures belong to Egypt, therefore, he requires them to do a little ass kissing before they are given permission to excavate. You know, kind of like your modern day politics. And, I think western archaelogists are finding it very hard to adjust to this new strict policy, when a few years back it was so easy to gain access to these sites, maybe too easy.

Edited June 7, 2006 by tflex

[Rameses the Great]

Modern Egupt has absolutely no connection with Pharaonic Egypt - its been a Mameluk state since then, and converted to Islam. The modern state occupies the same geographical area (pretty much) as the old kingdom - but I see no basis for a claim to "own" items removed in the past.

 

How about Copts in Greek meaning, 'the original Egyptians?' The thing inspiring about Egypt is that it stood the test of time. These are probably the greatest treasures in the world and I just want it to be used in the best manner.

 

I remember the story that the Muslims tried to break down the pyramids, with a team of 7,000 men. They could not even chink it. That is what I love about Egypt, it's eternal and will remain so, as it should be.

[Horatius]

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/entertain...0A?OpenDocument The selfish part of me hopes this will stay here where I can see it again and again. It is very beautiful, much more so in person."Hawass has not specified what action he would take if the Monday deadline were not met, but at a May 1 press meeting in Cairo, he told the Post-Dispatch that he would disparage the museum in the art world. "I will make their life hell," he said." Honestly, I don't know what to think. I love MY Museum however,it is a great Museum, I am just being selfish. Edited June 10, 2006 by Horatius

[phil25]

I remember the story that the Muslims tried to break down the pyramids, with a team of 7,000 men. They could not even chink it. That is what I love about Egypt, it's eternal and will remain so, as it should be.

 

But one of the muslim rulers of Egypt DID try to gain entrance to the Great Pyramid. far from not even "chinking" it, you can still see the vast gash in the face where they used explosives to blast out the entrance.

 

I love Egypt too, but I see no relation between Pharaonic Egypt and today's country. There is much less link than the English can claim to saxon or earlier roots. Our monarchy has clear descent back to about 600.

 

These are probably the greatest treasures in the world and I just want it to be used in the best manner.

 

Even accepting your rating of the treasures, they ARE being used in the best manner now. They are far more accessible, better displayed and more available to tourists, artists, designers and academics in London, New York, Paris or Berlin, than they would be in Cairo or Luxor. They act as ambassadors, encouraging people to visit Egypt and explore the ancient culture more deeply at its source.

 

Dr Hawass and his colleagues even now have enormous difficulty in protecting their excavations from "looters", and I remain of the opinion that Egypt, as with the whole of the Middle East is highly unstable. Send precious items back and we may regret it..

 

It is ironic, in a way, that as globalisation grows more inevitable and stronger - with more people travelling; and a broader view of culture apparently developing, that we see this inward focused demand to bring everything "back" (whatever that might mean) into tightly constrained history laagers.

 

I doubt that - unless a weak Government in the UK tries to buy popularity in the future - that the Elgin Marbles will ever go back to Athens, or the Rosetta Stone or nefertiti back to Egypt. The implications and the principle concerned are just too huge.

 

Phil

[Moonlapse]

I believe they should return the Rosetta stone, King Tut's body, and anything that is important to the Egyptians. Thank God we made the pyramids, that is one thing the Europeans will never take with them.

It's hard to take you seriously when you ascribe collective racial accomplishments to yourself.

 

Suppose I say, "Thank God we made Stonehenge, that is one thing the Egyptians will never take with them." Do you see the nationalist/racist nature of this?

[phil25]

I'd just like to point out that Egypt still Tutankhamen's body, and always has had. It remains, I think, in his tomb - the only body of a Pharoah to do so.

 

Clearly Egypt just wants things, even though it's not certain what it already has!!