Greek/macedonian Influence In The Middle East

[Ursus]

That's interesting Ursus, I've seen other scholars like Lionel Casson argue the opposite of Grants position; i.e. that Hellenism had a great influence on aculturation and city administration in these eastern areas & if not for that, Rome would not have found it so easy (relatively) to administer these areas at a later time.

 

 

I think the people most likely to learn Greek and assume an air of Hellenization were the local native elites - the wealthy and educated - who had to appear to be useful to the new Greco-Macedonian (and later, Roman) administrators. But I don't think rural peasants were so inclined to abandon their millenia old native cultures and languages for that of their overlords.

 

So from the perspective, the urban centers in the East were Hellenized to some degree because of the influx of Greco-Macedonians, and because the local elites living there learned Greek to collaborate. The Roman Empire seemed to function as a web of cities held together by roads and military forces and a common trading language- so this was already in place to some degree thanks to Alexander's successors.

 

But beyond the strictly urban centers, I really don't think Hellenization left much of an impact. This ties in to Mr. Dalby's post above as to why Greek did not supplant the local languages in the East the way Latin did in the West.

[MACEDONIAN]

First of all Hello all forum members!

I know this thread hasn't been used for a while, but this is a history forum, so here I go.

 

What is important to say about the greek/macedonian influence in the middle east and any territory that was conquered and included in the vast Macedonian empire of Alexander the Great is the fact that it can still be traced. Although it must be said that because of the short-lived reign of Alexander and his ill-fated succesors, the influences today are minute and can be considered under the title "Believe it or not!".

This is more then evident in some remote areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. The remnants of a "strange" tribe that lives in the mountain regions, speaking a strange language, celebrating "foreign" (for the region) rituals and having physical characteristics completely different from any neighboring peoples (namely blonde hair and blue eyes) is a startling example of a living history example. The Kalash people of Pakistan are a living link to the famed conquering expedition of Alexander the Great, some 2300 years ago.

As for the origin and relation of Macedonians and Greeks, from all I have read on the subject it seems quite clear that Macedonians were not Greeks, but first-door neighbors, so to speak that were always there, but were too weak and poorly organized until the rule of Philip II.

As famed historian Peter Green says in the intro of his book: Alexander of Macedon, Chapter: Philip of Macedon

"The story of Alexander the Great is inexorably bound up with that of his father, King Philip II, and with his country, Macedonia. Philip was a most remarkable and dominating figure in his own right; while Macedonia, as has recently been observed was the first large territorial state with an effectively centralized political, military and administrative structure to come into being on the continent of Europe. Unless we understand this, and them, Alexander's career must remain for us no more than a progress of a comet, flaring in unparalleled majesty across the sky: a marvel, but incomprehensible. Genius Alexander had, and in full measure; yet even genius remains to a surprising extent the product of its environment. What Alexander was, Philip and Macedonia in a great part made him."

 

In a nutshell, Macedonians became very strong because of Philip's genius of gaining territories that yielded a steady supply of gold as well as the reform of the phalanx that gave the Macedonians an unprecedented advantage over Greeks, Persians and anyone else they encountered on the battle fields.

So, they invaded and conquered Greece, sealed by the battle at Chaeronea.

It would take years, many rebellions and a foreign power i.e. Romans to put an end to the Macedonian hegemony over Greece. And this didn't mean liberty for the Greeks, but rather change of rulers from Macedonian to Roman.

[historyfanatic]

Hey all have not been on in ages actually I forgot all about this forum. Now here is what some Ancient Romans thought about the Macedonians being Greek. Their is no doubt after careful research that Macedonians were Dorian Greeks.

 

ROMANS

 

Quintus Curtius Rufus

 

Alexander also summoned the delegates of the League of Corinth in order to have himself declared its Hegemon and, when he had obtained their support for his expedition against Persia, he returned to Macedonia (Diod. 17.4.9) The government of Persia had undergone a number of changes since Philip II first organized the Greek crusade against the East.

 

The History of Alexander - Penguin Classics, Translation by John Yardley, page 20

 

“They recalled that at the start of his reign Darius had issued orders for the shape of the scabbard of the Persian scimitar to be altered to the shape used by the Greeks, and that the Chaldeans had immediately interpreted this as meaning that rule over the Persians would pass to those people whose arms Darius had copied. “

 

(Quintus Curtius Rufus 3.3.6)

 

“For his part Alexander responded much like this: ‘His majesty Alexander to Darius: Greetings. The Darius whose name you have assumed wrought much destruction upon the Greek inhabitants of the Hellespontine coast and upon the Greek colonies of Ionia, and the crossed the sea with a mighty army, bringing the war to Macedonia and Greece. On another occasion Xerxes, a member of the same family, came with his savage barbarian troops, and even when beaten in a naval engagement he still left Mardonius in Greece so that he could destroy our cities and burn our fields though absent himself.”

 

(Quintus Curtius Rufus 4.1.10)

 

“Mutiny was but a step away when, unperturbed by all this, Alexander summoned a full meeting of his generals and officers in his tent and ordered the Egyptian seers to give their opinion. They were well aware that the annual cycle follows a pattern of changes, that the moon is eclipsed when it passes behind the earth or is blocked by the sun, but they did not give this explanation, which they themselves knew, to the common soldiers. Instead, they declared that the sun represented the Greeks and the moon the Persians, and that an eclipse of the moon predicted disaster and slaughter for those nations.”

 

(Quintus Curtius Rufus 4.10.1)

 

“Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia, the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe. To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out, he said.”

 

(Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.6.1)

 

“One of the latter was Thais. She too had had too much to drink, when she claimed that, if Alexander gave the order to burn the Persian palace, he would earn the deepest gratitude among all the Greeks. This was what the people whose cities the Persians ahd destroyed were expecting she said. As the drunken whore gave her opinion on a matter of extreme importance, one or two who were themselves the worse for drink agreed with her. the king, too, was enthusiastic rather than acquiescent. “Why do we not avenge Greece, then and put the city to the torch?” he asked.”

 

(Quintus Curtius Rufus 5. 7. 3)

 

“From here he now moved into Media, where he was met by fresh reinforcement from Cilicia: 5,000 infantry and 1,000 cavalry, both under the command of the Athenian Plato. His foraces thus augmented. Alexander determined to pursue Darius”

 

(Quintus Curtius Rufus 5. 7. 8)

 

“As for Alexander, it is generally agreed that, when sleep had brought him back to his senses after his drunken bout, he regretted his actions and said that the Persians would have suffered a more grievous punishment at the hands of the Greeks had they been forced to see him on Xerxes’ throne and in his palace.”

 

(Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.7.11)

 

“In pursuit of Bessus the Macedonians had arrived at a small town inhabited by the Branchidae who, on the orders of Xerxes, when he was returning from Greece, had emigrated from Miletus and settled in this spot. This was necessary because, to please Xerxes, they had violated the temple called the Didymeon. The culture of their forebears had not yet disappeared thought they were now bilingual and the foreign tongue was gradually eroding their own. So it was with great joy that they welcomed Alexander, to whom they surrendered themselves and their city. Alexander called a meeting of the Milesians in his force, for the Milesians bore a long-standing grudge against the Branchidae as a clan. Since they were the people betrayed by the Branchidae, Alexander let them decide freely on their case, asking if they preferred to remember their injury or their common origins. But when there was a difference of opinion over this, he declared that he would himself consider the best course of action.

 

When the Branchidae met him the next day, he told them to accompany him. On reaching the city, he himself entered through the gate with a unit of light-armed troops. The phalanx had been ordered to surround the city walls and, when the signal was given, to sack this city which provided refuge for traitors, killing the inhabitants to a man. The Branchidae, who were unarmed, were butchered throughout the city, and neither community of language nor the olive-branches and entreaties of the suppliants could curb the savagery. Finally the Macedonians dug down to the foundations of the city walls in order to demolish them and leave not a single trace of the city.”

 

“The gist of the passage was that the Greeks had established a bad practice in inscribing their trophies with only their kings’ names, for the kings’ were thus appropriating to themselves glory that was won by the blood of others.”

 

(Quintus Curtius Rufus 8.1.29)

 

“and he [alexander] demonstrated the strength of his contempt for the barbarians by celebrating games in honour of Aesclepius and Athena.”

 

(Curtius Rufus 3, 7, 3)

 

“he consecrated three altars on the banks of the river Pinarus to Zeus, Hercules, and Athena,…”

 

(Curtius Rufus 3, 12, 27)

 

“About this time there took place the traditional Isthmian games, which the whole of Greece gathers to celebrate. At this assembly the Greeks - political trimmers by temperament - determined that fifteen ambassadors be sent to the king to offer him a victory-gift of a golden crown in honour of his achievements on behalf of the security and freedom of greece.”

 

(Curtius Rufus 4, 5, 11)

 

“they also occupied Tenedos and had decided to seize Chios at the invitation of its inhabitants.”

 

(Curtius Rufus 4, 5, 14)

 

“Then Alexander’s horses dragged him around the city while the king gloated at having followed the example of his ancestor Achilles in punishing his enemy.”

 

Curtius Rufus 4,6.29)

 

” Moreover, as a reward for their exceptional loyalty to him, Alexander reimbursed the people of Mitylene for their war expenses and also added a large area to their territories.”

 

(Curtius Rufus 4.8.13)

 

” Furthemore, appropriate honours were accorded the kings of Cyprus who had defected to him from Darius and sent him a fleet during his assault on Tyre.”

 

(Curtius Rufus 4.8.14)

 

“Amphoterus, the admiral of the fleet, was then sent to liberate Crete, most of which was occupied by both Persian and Spartan armies”

 

(Curtius Rufus 4.8.15)

 

 

“He did not want her tainting the character and civilized temperament of the Greeks with this example of barbarian lawlessness“

“Alexander advanced from there to the river Tanais, where Bessus was brought to him, not only in irons but entirely stripped of his clothes. Spitamenes held him with a chain around his neck, a sight that afforded as much pleasure to the barbarians as to the Macedonians.”

 

(Curtius Rufus 7.5.36)

 

” Meanwhile a group of Macedonians had gone off to forage out of formation and were suprised by some Barbarians who came rushing down on them from the neighbouring mountains.”

 

(Curtius Rufus 7.6.1)

 

“Menedemus himself, riding an extremely powerful horse, had repeatedly charged at full gallop into the barbarians’ wedge-shaped contingents, scattering them with great carnage.”

 

(Curtius Rufus 7.6.35)

 

Besides the Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will

more easily understand what I shall say if I use the same language which you have employed, for no other reason, I suppose, than in order that you speech might be understood by the greater number

 

(Curtius 6.9.35)

 

2. Titus Livius

 

“Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the SAME language

 

“

 

(T. Livius XXXI,29, 15)

 

“General Paulus of Rome surrounded by the ten Commissioners took his official seat surrounded by the whole crowds of Macedonians…Paulus announced in Latin the decisions of the Senate, as well as his own, made by the advice of his council. This announcement was translated into Greek and repeated by Gnaeus Octavius the Praetor-for he too was present.”

 

(T. Livius,XLV)

 

3. Cicero

 

"For if all the wars which we have carried on against the Greeks are to be despised, then let the triumph of Marcus Curius over king Pyrrhus be derided; and that of Titus Flamininus over Philip; and that of Marcus Fulvius over the Aetolians; and that of Lucius Paullus over king Perses; and that of Quintus Metellus over the false Philip; and that of Lucius Mummius over the Corinthians. But, if all these wars were of the greatest importance, and if our victories in them were most acceptable, then why are the Asiatic nations and that Asiatic enemy despised by you? But, from our records of ancient deeds; I see that the Roman people carried on a most important war with Antiochus; the conqueror in which war, Lucius Scipio, who had already gained great glory when acting in conjunction with his brother Publius, assumed the same honour himself by taking a surname from Asia, as his brother did, who, having subdued Africa, paraded his conquest by the assumption of the name of Africanus. [32] And in that war the renown of your ancestor Marcus Cato was very conspicuous; but he, if he was, as I make no doubt that he was, a man of the same character as I see that you are, would never have gone to that war, if he had thought that it was only going to be a war against women. Nor would the senate have prevailed on Publius Africanus to go as lieutenant to his brother, when he himself; a little while before, having forced Hannibal out of Italy, having driven him out of Africa, and having crushed the power of Carthage, had delivered the republic from the greatest dangers, if that war had not been considered an important and formidable war."

 

[Orations of Cicero]

 

4. Julius Caesar

 

"Caesar judged that he must drop everything else and pursue Pompey where he had betaken himself after his flight, so that he should not be able to gather more forces and renew, and he advanced daily as far as he could go with the cavalry and ordered a legion to follow shorter stages. An edict had been published in Pompey's name that all the younger men in the province [Macedonia], both Greeks and Roman citizens, should assemble to take an oath."

 

Caesar, Civil War 111.102.3

 

5. Velleius Paterculus

 

In this period, sixty-five years before the founding of Rome, Carthage was established by the Tyrian Elissa, by some authors called Dido. 5 About this time also Caranus, a man of royal race, eleventh in descent from Hercules, set out from Argos and seized the kingship of Macedonia. From him Alexander the Great was descended in the seventeenth generation, and could boast that, on his mother’s side, he was descended from Achilles, and, on his father’s side, from Hercules.”

 

[Velleius Paterculus: “The Roman History” Book I, 5]

 

6. Marcus Junianus Justinus

 

Caranus also came to Emathia with a large band of Greeks, being instructed by an oracle to seek a home in Macedonia. Hero, following a herd of goats running from a downpour, he seized the city of Edessa, the inhabitants being taken unawares because of heavy rain and dense fog. Remembering the oracle’s command to follow the lead of goats in his quest for ar empire, Caranus established the city as his capital, and thereafter he made it a solemn observance, wheresoever he took his army, to keep those same goats before his standards in order in have as leaders in his exploits the animals which he had had with him to found the kingdom. He gave the city of Edessa the name Aegaeae and its people the name Aegeads in memory of this service

 

M.Justinus’ epitome of Pompeius Trogus’ Universal History 7.1

 

Next he directed the army towards Thebes intending to show the same mercy if he met with similar contrition. But the Thebans resorted to arms rather than entreaties or appeals, and so after their defeat they were subjected to all the terrible punishments associated with a humiliating capitulation. When the destruction of the city was being discussed in council, the Phocians, the Plataeans, the Thespians and the Orchomenians, Alexander’s allies who now shared his victory, recalled the devastation of their own cities and the ruthlessness of the Thebans, reproaching them also with their past as well as their present support of Persia against the independence of Greece. This, they said, had made Thebes an abomination to all the Greek peoples, which was obvious from the fact that the Greeks had one and all taken a solemn oath to destroy the city once the Persians were defeated, Thev also added the tales of earlier Theban wickedness - the material with which they had filled all their plays - in order to foment hatred against them not only for their treachery in the present but also for their infamies in the past.

 

M.Justinus’ epitome of Pompeius Trogus’ Universal History 11.3.6

 

7. Ammianus Marcellinus

 

Nicator Seleucus, after he had occupied that district, increased its prosperity to a wonderful degree, when, after the death of Alexander, king of Macedonia, he took possession of the kingdom of Persia by right of succession; being a mighty and victorious king, as his surname indicates. And making free use of his numerous subjects, whom he governed for a long time in tranquillity, he changed groups of rustic habitations into regular cities, important for their great wealth and power, the greater part of which at the present day, although they are called, by Greek names which were given them by the choice of their founder, have nevertheless not lost their original appellations which the original settlers of the villages gave them in the Assyrian language.

 

Ammianus Marcellinus, Roman History. London: Bohn (1862) Book 14 VIII

[historyfanatic]

... Ancient historians are by far the best proof on any kind of history... Thanks

 

I quite accept that opinions can vary on this issue. The reason I don't go along with those who say 'ancient Macedonians were Greeks' is that the (very limited) examples of words in the ancient Macedonian language don't look like Greek. But this is certainly not conclusive. They might be cited exactly because these particular words differed from Greek, while most other words were just like Greek. I guess that is one of the arguments that Hammond may have used (I haven't read him on this particular subject).

 

What is certain is that the language spoken and spread by Alexander and his successors was, purely, Greek.

 

Hello Andrew I have some quotes that I have taken out of Hammond since you have read his work then you should definately remember these.

 

Herodotus made a special point of emphasizing that the royal house of Macedonia was Greek by descent, and Thucydides, who questioned much of what Herodotus said concurred with him in calling the Macedonian kings "Temenidae from Argos'. Almost a century later Isocrates wrote to Philip II, saying "Argos is your fatherland', and asked Philip to emulate his father (Amyntas) the founder of the monarchy (Perdiccas), and the originator of the family (Heracles)."

[For further references consult Hdt.5.22;Thuc.2.99.3;Thuc.5.80.2; Isoc.5.32 and 105-12]

 

N.G.L Hammond "A History of Greece to 322 B.C.", pg. 18

 

N.G.L Hammond: The Macedonian State:

 

 

"The matter is of only academic interest to a few scholars today. No one in antiquity doubted the truth of the claim."

 

page 19

 

As we have mentioned in Chapter I, Perdiccas and his brothers came from Argos and Peloponnese. They were members of the Royal house of Argos, the "Teminidae", descendants of Temenus, whose ancestor was Heracles, son of Zeus; it was this Temenus who led the Dorian tribes into the Argolid and founded Dorian Argos late in the 12th century. Thus Perdiccas came to Macedonia with the aura of divine favor, and he could claim that the Temenidae and the Argeadae were both descended from Zeus and so were diogeneis. To Greeks of the classical period the Temenid name was well known. Thus the oracle which was concerned post eventum with he following of the new capital, Aegeae, by Perdiccas began with the line "The noble Temenidae have royal rule over a wealth producing land. Herodotus made a special point of emphasizing that the royal house of Macedonia was Greek by descent, and Thucydides, who questioned much of what Herodotus said, concurred with him in calling the Macedonian kings "Temenidae from Argos". Almost a century later Isocrates wrote to Philip II, saying "Argos is your fatherland", and he asked Philip to emulate his father [Amyntas], the founder of the monarchy [Perdiccas], and the originator of the family Heracles)."

 

page 18.

 

It seems now that Alexander wanted from the Greek states a public and universal recognition of his benefactions, and that he wanted it as being himself a Greek of the Temenid family

 

page 235

 

N.G.L Hammond "A History of Greece to 332 B.C.":

 

"In the early fifth century the royal house of Macedon, the Temenidae, was recognized as Greek by the presidents of the Olympic games. Their verdict was and is decisive; for modern critics adduce no evidence. It is certain that the Kings considered themselves to be of Greek descent from Heracles, Son of Zeus. The royal house of Lyncus in Upper Macedonia claimed descent from the Bacchiadae, who fled from Corinth about 657. The great wealth of another Royal house has been revealed by the gold masks and furniture discovered in tombs of the late sixth century of Trebenishte near Lake Lynchnitis. The Temenidae and

Bacchiadae certainly spoke Greek."

 

page 534.

 

 

He [Alexander III] believed himself to be of divine descent on both sides, from Heracles, son of Zeus, and Achilles, son of Thetis. At the Temple of Zeus Ammon this belief may have been confirmed; for thereafter he showed a special regard for the temple, and his friends believed it was his wish to be buried there and not at Aegae in Macedonia. He may have felt in 324 that his deeds justified him to emulate Achilles and Heracles, and therefore he sought from the Greeks the recognition which they alone could give, by according him "godlike honors" as a Greek."

 

page 641

 

 

The Macedonian kings had much in common with the Mycenaean kings protrayed in the Iliad. They, too, were 'sprung from Zeus'. For Philip claimed to be a descendant of Heracles, the son of Zeus. He put the head of Heracles on his earliest coins, named the first city-foundation Heraclea, and dedicated a statue of Heracles at the mouth of the Danube. He worshipped Zeus at Dium, dedicated a treasury to Zeus at Olympia, defended Apollo's shrine at Delphi, and placed the heads of Zeus and Apollo on his coins. It is significant that Isocrates asked Philip as a descendant of Heracles to consider all Greece his fatherland."

 

Its pretty interesting what Hammond states. Pretty much that Macedonians were Greeks unless Im missing something here.

[John Kombos]

By terms of culture maybe but not by genetics. I could always tell apart a Macedonian from a Greek in terms of appearance. Can any expert on this help us out?

 

 

Please tell me the physical characteristics of a Macedonian (no relation to the Slav country FYROM) and that of a Greek.

 

I am a Greek from West Macedonia. My family have always lived in the same city. We did not migrate here, we were always here. Tell me the difference between myself and a Greek from Southern Greece.

 

 

John Kombos

[John Kombos]

... Ancient historians are by far the best proof on any kind of history... Thanks

 

I quite accept that opinions can vary on this issue. The reason I don't go along with those who say 'ancient Macedonians were Greeks' is that the (very limited) examples of words in the ancient Macedonian language don't look like Greek. But this is certainly not conclusive. They might be cited exactly because these particular words differed from Greek, while most other words were just like Greek. I guess that is one of the arguments that Hammond may have used (I haven't read him on this particular subject).

 

What is certain is that the language spoken and spread by Alexander and his successors was, purely, Greek.

 

If you visit the museum in Vergina, West Macedonia, Greece you will see that the broken pieces of marble taken mainly from old tombstones to build Phillip's mound have Greek letters on them. No where will you see any other language.

 

If the Ancient Macedons had another language, why weren't their tombstones engraved with the characters of this language? Was it a written language or did they use Greek as their written language. We know that Alexander used the Greek language in his studies, we know that he wrote his letters to his mother in Greek. We know he used Greek as his official language. Did he use Macedonian at all? Is there any proof that he ever wrote in Macedonian?

 

John Kombos