Pantagathus Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) Instead of replying in this necro post, I figured I'd start a new thread. Everybody knows that the Greeks used helmet plumes long before the Romans adopted the style. Any time the words 'Spartan' or 'Trojan' are uttered the mental image usually involves a crested helmet does it not? But when did the Greeks or Trojans invent the horse hair crest? Or was it them at all? Well, using Herodotus as a guide, the style had its roots deep in the Bronze Age and was apparently invented by subjects of the Minoan civilization; the Carians... "Of these, the Carians have come to the mainland from the islands; for in the past they were islanders, called Leleges and under the rule of Minos, not (as far as I can learn by report) paying tribute, but manning ships for him when he needed them. Since Minos had subjected a good deal of territory for himself and was victorious in war, this made the Carians too at that time by far the most respected of all nations. They invented three things in which they were followed by the Greeks: it was the Carians who originated wearing crests on their helmets and devices on their shields, and who first made grips for their shields; until then all who used shields carried them without these grips, and guided them with leather belts which they slung round the neck and over the left shoulder. Then, a long time afterwards, the Carians were driven from the islands by Dorians and Ionians and so came to the mainland. This is the Cretan story about the Carians..." - Herodotus, 1.171 Edited May 31, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 There are only so many ways of attaching a plume to a helmet. The "Sea Peoples" and the Phoenicians wore helmets with a circle of feathers. I think they are thought, in part, to have had an Aegean origin and certainly raided the costs of what used to be called Asia Minor. So I suppose there may have been influences. I think the Assyrians may also have used small horsehair crests on helmets and chariot horse head-pieces. Hollywood, of course, has always tended to get the Roman's wrong. The MGM epics often used crests inappropiately. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 May I offer this image to illustrate Phil's remark regarding possible anchorpoints.. http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...&cmd=si&img=763 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 The crest was mainly used on officers' helmets to make them easily identifiable to the troops in battle, and to give them an imposing figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 The crest was mainly used on officers' helmets to make them easily identifiable to the troops in battle, and to give them an imposing figure. What period are you talking about here, LW? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 I thought this was the use of them in all periods, though I don't know exactly when the practice came into use, and from what I've seen it may have eventually died out towards the end of the Empire (but the only evidence I have of this last snippet is some pictures I've seen, nothing concrete and I can't guarantee its accuracy.) It does seem very practical though, nothing like the meelee of battle to find out that you cannot locate your commanding officer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 (edited) late period Auxilliae have plumed helmets, also with Saxon and Norse headgear we have a raised ornamentation to emphasise the wearers height . I understand the psychology is akin to the raising of the arm in a salute in sports matches, signalling that the person is "tallest" in the tribe.Tallest perhaps meaning most accomplished in valour. Edited June 1, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longbow Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 The Republic Legionnaries bought there own gear so couldnt they have whatever decoration they wanted on there helms?or was there some uniformaty laws regarding the armour you brought to service with you? I prefere how feathers look rather than the crest's,purely based on looks mind you i dont know what would be better for spying your superior's. RTR Legionnaries. late period Auxilliae have plumed helmets, also with Saxon and Norse headgear we have a raised ornamentation to emphasise the wearers height . I understand the psychology is akin to the raising of the arm in a salute in sports matches, signalling that the person is "tallest" in the tribe.Tallest perhaps meaning most accomplished in valour. The Macedonian Helms allso tend to extend the warriors height,this one from Phillips tomb is a good example of the style allthough im not sure if its ceromonial,its not one of my favourite Helms . Infantry Helm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 I personally prefer the look of horsehair crests I don't think that a normal legionary would be allowed to wear a crest, even if he did buy it himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 I posted this especially for Lost Warrior-its not brilliant , but at least you get an idea of what the Cornicen could do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 (edited) LAMACHUS: Bring me the plumes for my helmet! DICAEOPOLIS: Bring me wild pigeons and thrushes. LAMACHUS: How white and beautiful are these ostrich feathers! DICAEOPOLIS: How fat and well browned is the flesh of this wood-pigeon! LAMACHUS: Bring me the case for my triple plume. DICAEOPOLIS: Pass me over that dish of hare. LAMACHUS: OH! the moths have eaten the hair of my crest. DICAEOPOLIS: I shall always eat hare before dinner. LAMACHUS: Hi! friend! try not to scoff at my armor? DICAEOPOLIS: Hi! friend! will you kindly not stare at my thrushes... I post this part of an Aristophanes play for a couple if reasons: 1. It would seem that an Athenian general of the 5th Century BC would wear plumes of ostrich feathers as well as a hair crest 2. They were stored seperately from the helmet 3. The were quite perishable Edited June 23, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Gotta love YouTube. Unfortunately I'm going back to my house Sunday where I only have dialup... Yes I'd imagine the crests would be quite parishable, especially in those days. Any idea what was done to keep them looking nice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Yes I'd imagine the crests would be quite parishable, especially in those days. Looks like Lamacus' slaves forgot to stow them with some sweet woodruff, lavender & cedar... Anyway, constant grooming and attention by either the soldier and/or his servent was probably in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Cedar!! Of course!! I forgot about Cedar...gotta love that stuff. It smells so good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 (edited) Cedar!! Of course!! I forgot about Cedar...gotta love that stuff. It smells so good too. Cedar as either a block of fragrant wood, shaved from time to time, or the oil sprinkled liberally. Clove would do quite nicely as well. In my wardrobe I have small blocks which I sprinkle with the oil, and next to our bed we have a large wooden dish containing clove, black pepper and cinnamon-the heat from a lamp gives a heady background aroma. Frankincensce as oil or (burnt) gum is a great cleanser -but I suspect AD will have something to say .. http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0714127...ce&n=266239 one of his previous works and a favourite of mine. Edited June 23, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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