Military Reforms Of Marius

[Q Valerius Scerio]

Were the military reforms of Marius good or bad for Rome? And to negate a false dichotomy, it was probably a little bit of both. Looking for some input on the debate.

 

On one hand, his reforms led him to win battle after battle with astonishing success. The other Italian city-states in the Social War really didn't have that much of a chance with the influx of new soldiers into the army. Also, it helped give the plebs more of a chance to rise to riches.

 

On the other hand, the duty to the state lessened as the soldiers gave allegiance to their generals for pay. I don't think much of the (third) Civil War would have happened the way it did if the generals weren't able to raise their armies themselves. I doubt the name Julius Caesar would have risen to prominence at all. It's quite possible that the fall of the Republic would have been delayed for quite some time.

 

So whaddya think?

[Kosmo]

It was a disastrous decision.

 

Not only the fall of the Republic was generated by this reform, but also the crisis that will later lead to the fall of the roman world.

The proffesional army was a good instrument, but the romans have conquered the world before it.

 

If they kept some form of a conscript army they could defend themselves in much greater numbers and much cheaper against the barbarians and this "popular" army would have prevented the rise of absolute rulers.

They needed a reform at that point as the wars were fought far from Italy, but not that. Extending the citizenship and creating some form of permanent army thru drafting like athenian efebs or modern conscript armies would have been better.

 

After the end of the civil wars the proffesional army was fully established at a moment when it was less needed and the defense of the established borders could be done by less qualified soldiers.

[Germanicus]

Linked certainly, but not a cause in itself as such. I wouldn't call it a disaster, quite the opposite as the reforms bought about Roman arms superiority for at least the next 3-400 years.

 

A disaster for the republic ? That was the armies fault in the same way that it's the guns fault when someone gets shot and without the reforms we have no way of knowing how things would have gone otherwise against the Cimbri and Tuetones. Where would the men have come from after those crushing defeats like Arusio ?

 

The proffessional Army is only seen as disaster for the Republic because the state neglected to take care of it's soldiers,(mistake when they are without property or wealth) and individual men used this to bring about realisation of their own interests. Proffessional armies exsist in modern states.....and yet no problem......because the state takes care of them.

[Kosmo]

The romans were military superior before the reforms. They had defeated Carthage, Macedonia and the Seleucid kingdom. The problems that they still faced were not as serious as the ones they already solved.

 

Republics always feared proffesional armies and generals.

An army it's a terrible force and if it's not made from people who want to keep the existing form of government it's nothing you can do to stop it from changing it.

Money are no good and the history of the roman empire it's a good example, because the army will want always more and will bring a goverment that gives more.

A goverment should have an army that obeys him because it's a legitim regime and the army believes and defends his legitimacy.

 

After Arusio they could take the soldiers from where they took them after Trasimene and Cannae.

 

It's obvious for me that Marius created a proffesional army and then was the first roman ever to use it to get absolute power. Can you deny this?

 

Do you think that the US Army will bomb Washington if it's not payed?

[Germanicus]

Do you think that the US Army will bomb Washington if it's not payed?

 

I think if the military personell were not paid for two years and denied their retirment pensions after serving their country in conflict - there could be serious repercussions.

 

It's obvious for me that Marius created a proffesional army and then was the first roman ever to use it to get absolute power. Can you deny this?

 

Thats my point right there, so thanks - Marius was the cause, NOT the army he used.

 

An army it's a terrible force and if it's not made from people who want to keep the existing form of government it's nothing you can do to stop it from changing it.

 

I do not believe the rank and file of the Roman Army once professionalised wanted to overthrow the government. They wanted the rewards they were promised, and as the state didn't provide - turned to their leaders.

 

Like I said, sure there's a link - but a link that could have been avoided while still having a professional army.

[Primus Pilus]

I agree with the notion that its the way Marius used his army for political gain rather than the reforms itself. Clearly, recruiting from the head count helped establish an army that was particularly loyal to Marius as an individual, but this was not the first time that non landowners had been conscripted.

 

Much like the second punic war, Rome was desperate for manpower (after massive losses in Noricum, Aurasio, etc. the ongoing war in Numidia). Howwever, the conditions which led into Marius' reforms (large scale slave labor and plebeian unemployment) did not exist in such a scale until after the grand victories in Hispania, Africa and the Balkans. The choices were limited and perhaps the reorganization was inevitable especially when we consider that Rome was no longer fighting for survival of the city-state. Land owners who once were considered indispensable because of the personal stake in protecting their own properties, no longer had the incentive to fight when such fighting was for expansion in some far away land. Considering the achievements of the head count armies after the reforms, its hard to argue that they were any less effective. With all that said, I feel that Marius bears more personal responsibilty than the reforms he undertook.

 

At any rate, the reformation of the military structure of the legion and creating uniform interchangeable parts throughout the infantry was brilliant, as opposed to the social and political implications of the recruitment base he tapped into.