caldrail Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 (edited) The testudo was simply a way of avoiding casualties from missile fire. As an offensive formation it had the dsadvantage of being unmanoeverable - rather like the phalanx as you say. Too much emphasis has been placed on the testudo. It would only have been used where enemy archers/slingers or castle defenders were a positive danger. No, I'm going to rephrase that. The testudo wasn't unmanoeverable as such, it wasn't flexible enough for general use. Edited June 8, 2006 by caldrail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted June 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Tommh http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/polybius-maniple.html reply thanks for the links ===== Eunapius Titus question? Q? I'm afraid that testudo was...only... reply no, it is a tactical formation... use like the phalanx to push the enemy battle line. xxx Q? in the fact that both formations require the men to retain a rigid formation with limited mobility. reply no, it have tactical purpose... why lock in formations that 'require the men to retain a rigid formation with limited mobility. ' if it have no reason and military purpose. if you are the legate, will you do it without reason at all. xxx Q? ... in a testudo formation attempting to push through a phalanx, or any other group of enemies. reply yes, use as defensive form- to block or impede the forwarding move of enemy line, like a "big stone wall" of hasta [ square form ] of pallisade in the way of phalanx. or as offensive form- to slowly assault "only part" the enemy frontal line, to create a breakage in the weak enemy battle line and make a hole in the enemy front. xxx Q? The testudo has one simply, unadulterated purpose: missle protection. wrong, when the roman legiones was under missile attack, they simply raise the men second liner scutum shields to cover the head of the frontal liner men. it is not testudo form or it is never been called a tortoise military formation. because it is the Hastatus basic form... a hastati battle line formation. xxx caldrail Q? The testudo was simply a way of avoiding casualties from missile fire. reply wrong, testudo was not mean to be for the use against protection from missile fire. testudo was a tortoise military formation like a "little big square" smaller copycat of the The Macedonian Phalanx formation. Q? As an offensive formation it had the disadvantage of being unmanoeverable. reply the testudo was only mean "to move forward or rearward" and use as a blocking detach force or use as a attack detach force in form of "little big square" pallisade of hasta. xxx Testudo was a tortoise form military formation . rad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metforce Posted June 11, 2006 Report Share Posted June 11, 2006 I would also note that it wasn't even necessarily important to fully flank the said phalanx. To simply get the Roman line orientated slightly past the left edge (the Romans' left) would be disastrous for the phalanx. The reason is simple: The last man had only half shield coverage, and only an ungainly pike to defend the other half. Now, granted. I wouldn't want to be one of the hastatii pushing my way using the curved scutum through the wall of pikes in front of me. But if a small number of soldiers managed to force members of the phalanx to revert to using their swords or to fall back from position, the stability of the phalanx is greatly reduced. Mix that with a hail of pila and a second line of fresh, more experienced principes to finish off the formation, and you can see why a manipular Republican legion would have an advantage over a pure phalanx. However, by the time of Rome's rise, most Greek and Hellenistic phalanx-based armies were much more complex, using skirmishers, archers, strong cavalry, and elephants along with more fluid leadership styles. Using these, it was possible to return the favor and break the legion's ranks. This led to the many great battles and struggles between Hellenistic nations and Rome. Good point on the vulnerability of the "left" side. I seem to remember reading some place that the Romans tended to put their best men on the left side of their formations. Can't find the reference now. This would seem to make sense putting your best men on the side where an opponent would not have the use of their shield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted June 11, 2006 Report Share Posted June 11, 2006 Tommh http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/polybius-maniple.html reply thanks for the links ===== Eunapius Titus question? Q? I'm afraid that testudo was...only... reply no, it is a tactical formation... use like the phalanx to push the enemy battle line. xxx Q? in the fact that both formations require the men to retain a rigid formation with limited mobility. reply no, it have tactical purpose... why lock in formations that 'require the men to retain a rigid formation with limited mobility. ' if it have no reason and military purpose. if you are the legate, will you do it without reason at all. xxx Q? ... in a testudo formation attempting to push through a phalanx, or any other group of enemies. reply yes, use as defensive form- to block or impede the forwarding move of enemy line, like a "big stone wall" of hasta [ square form ] of pallisade in the way of phalanx. or as offensive form- to slowly assault "only part" the enemy frontal line, to create a breakage in the weak enemy battle line and make a hole in the enemy front. xxx Q? The testudo has one simply, unadulterated purpose: missle protection. wrong, when the roman legiones was under missile attack, they simply raise the men second liner scutum shields to cover the head of the frontal liner men. it is not testudo form or it is never been called a tortoise military formation. because it is the Hastatus basic form... a hastati battle line formation. xxx caldrail Q? The testudo was simply a way of avoiding casualties from missile fire. reply wrong, testudo was not mean to be for the use against protection from missile fire. testudo was a tortoise military formation like a "little big square" smaller copycat of the The Macedonian Phalanx formation. Q? As an offensive formation it had the disadvantage of being unmanoeverable. reply the testudo was only mean "to move forward or rearward" and use as a blocking detach force or use as a attack detach force in form of "little big square" pallisade of hasta. xxx Testudo was a tortoise form military formation . rad As I stated, the testudo was a formation designed to minimise casualties from missile fire. In no way is it comparable to the phalanx and was never intended to be. Movement is necessarily slow, vision is limited, it cannot manoever effectively. Despite the defensive value of those shields, the testudo still remains vulnerable because it depends on zero casualties. Any unlucky legionary that falls away leaves a hole in the defenses that such a rigid formation cannot plug in action without exposing themselves to fire. When the testudo reaches an enemy group it must disassemble and return to a normal closed/open rank fighting block or achieve very little. If the testudo persists and attempts to push the enemy back, it really would be at risk of being surrounded. After that, a wall of shields won't help for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted June 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 testudo was best use in the frontal battle line engagement as a little big square obstacle to enemy, or an annoying slow moving forward tortoise shape military formation that could be devastating... Romanus legiones detach maniple assault group... that is moving towards enemy line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 (edited) No, the testudo wasn't devastating at all. It was purely for protection. A formation like that cannot push the front row forwards without much cursing and bruised fingers. In fact, it would probably fall apart if you tried to. In no way was the testudo analagous to an infantry 'tank'. If it had been as effective as you say, then it would have been the standard method of roman attack. Quite clearly the romans didn't do this. A useful protective formation perhaps, but with strong limits on offensive utility. Edited June 17, 2006 by caldrail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted June 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2006 caldrail question? It was purely for protection. reply the legio men will simply raise their shields to be protected from a volley of arrows. it is not testudo. xxx A formation like that cannot push the front row forwards without much cursing and bruised fingers. reply Testudo was a tortoise form military formation . rad it is not a linear battle line formation... but square... and best use in the frontal battle line engagement. xxx A useful protective formation perhaps, but with strong limits on offensive utility. reply the Princeps Testudo formation should be use side by side with the Hastatus Battle Line formation. the Hastati holding a battle line and then the Princeps testudo formation slowlly advance to the enemy frontal battle line... if it breaks... the supernumerary ante pilanus will exploit it and if the situations permits will do a flanking attack and pursue the enemy weakness. i never say it is a superior alone tactic and manuever. it must be use only when there is a battle line engagement... to be an effective... and under the flank protection of the Hastati line... and other support numerary to be "devastating at all." ... and "testudo formation" needs a different shield than the "battle line formation" of the Hastati. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 I understand your point, but really you've only underscored what I said. The Testudo needed protection? Or other troops to be devastating? As I said before - the testudo was used to the men to where they wanted to be without losing casualties. Once there, they had to do something else. Raising shields against archery is quite correct. However, keep on doing that and you're going to get tired - and this is where the testudo starts to make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted June 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 caldrail question? The Testudo needed protection? reply could you kindly give your battle formation diagram, so we can comprehend your battle situation scenario. so we can analyze how , where and who do the testudo... as you believe. xxx Or other troops to be devastating? reply the regular line Hastatus , Princeps , and Triarius never leave their designated line position. even when the enemy battle line breaks, it is the medium and light infantry jobs to exploit them, and when they totally rout, the legio flank cavalry pursue them to prevent enemy regrouping. xxx Raising shields against archery is quite correct. reply i agree xxx However, keep on doing that and you're going to get tired - and this is where the testudo starts to make sense. reply do you mean the testudo formation will not tire them, holding a raise shield. they use the same amount of energy doing it. as my point say's... testudo is a kind of military formation use for an intended tactical manuever. and not just for " "purely for protection" " against arrows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 Regarding tactics, you're basically identifying the same thing as me. The testudo cannot effectively attack on its own - it must do something else when it gets there, or have someone do it for them. Also, the light troops supporting the testudo's prevent the enemy from surround the formation, pulling shields out of the romans hands, and plunging sharp pointy things into their suprised faces. As for the shield question, get something around 5-10 lbs in weight. Now keep lifting it to shoulder height. Soon gets tiring doesn't it? Now lift the weight above your shoulder and keep it there. You can support that weight for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted June 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 caldrail Regarding tactics, you're basically identifying the same thing as me. reply yes, as i have taken note... xxx As for the shield question... reply the shields will be rested in the head... i was born and grow a poor child... when i was around 12 years old... we get a saw dust by the sacks and put it in our head then walk by feet for around 3 kilometers, the weight could be more than 10 kgs. and the event will take more than an hours to finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 I doubt they rested it on the head, but an overhead shield wouldn't be too difficult to hold there bearing in mind that other peoples shields help spread the weight (except for one rank!) and that the weight is comfortably centered over the shoulder. I take note of your bag-lifting in earlier days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted July 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 caldrail I doubt they rested it on the head, reply nobody know for sure xxx but an overhead shield wouldn't be too difficult to hold there bearing in mind that other peoples shields help spread the weight (except for one rank!) and that the weight is comfortably centered over the shoulder. reply are you sure, do you have taken precaution to consider what you say, by trying it yourself. take for example the scutum technical consideration: the height and wideness of the shield the weight, position and location of the handle. how long can you hold it with a bended arm? or over extended arm? when the handle is in the center ? or almost at the center? ______________________________________________________________________________ men in testudo formation do slowly walk with the continous shields covering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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