Mixing Wine With Water

[Guest agrippas]

To what extent was wine mixed with water in Rome? (In Judea it was generally 1/4 wine).

[Pantagathus]

To what extent was wine mixed with water in Rome? (In Judea it was generally 1/4 wine).

 

It really depended on the quality of the wine and where it was vinted. Some wines were already naturally watered down and others in need of much more. I've seen water-wine ranges from 1-10 to 1-2 and even fifty fifty mentioned.

 

Martial made many hilarious but scathing remarks about tavern owners who watered down their wine too much... (much like the unscrupulous bartenders of today that do as such with liquor drinks...)

[caldrail]

So it was watered down as much as the seller could get away with! I do remember something about a well-to-do roman casting scorn on someone for *not* watering his wine. That was uncouth it seems.

[Pantagathus]

I do remember something about a well-to-do roman casting scorn on someone for *not* watering his wine. That was uncouth it seems.

 

Martial for one made remarks...

 

"While twice five wine-tokens are a knight's allowance, why do you, Sextilianus, all to yourself take twice ten drinks?

 

By this time the warm water would have failed the attendants who bring it, were it not, Sextilianus, that you drink your wine unmixed."

[Cassius Loginus]

I have read somewhere that straight wine was a vulgar especially to nobles. Those who drank wine with water were more polite.

 

Is it true?

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

Yes, especially in the Greek world but in the roman world too. In fact drinking unwatered wine was the mark of the barbarians while drinking wine watered was part of the rituals of civilized men in Greece which they exported to the etruscan and the romans. the first comments to that effect are to be found in Herodotus if i remember well, but it is a common subject in ancient litterature.

 

I'd recommend you to find the book "Athenaeus and his world", there you should find quite a good discussion on banquet and it's rules

Edited August 18, 2007 by Bryaxis Hecatee

[Pertinax]

May I add that given the tendency of wines ( from this era ) to cloud easily, the use of additives in general (resin, herbs) was more commonplace.

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

Yes indeed many additives were added to the wine at this time, one of the most common being salt and/or seawater. Indeed it was needed for conservation especially during travel. Thus for the romans every greek wine was salted even if they were not initially.

 

But the worst I heard about was the use of lime into the hardest wines

[docoflove1974]

But the worst I heard about was the use of lime into the hardest wines

 

Sadly, I'm almost positive you're not talking about the citrus fruit *gag*

 

Speaking of fruit, I know now that all over the Mediterranean (I'm mostly thinking of Spain) this still goes on, with either mulled wine or something like sangr

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

You are right on all accounts. I had to do a paper on wine in the ancient world some years ago, I'll try to find it back so I can point you to the best ancient texts on the subject ( I can't give you the paper since it is in french and I presume most of you don't understand my langage ).

[Kosmo]

Wonder how the wine taste it's like with seawater in it. Maybe they put just a vary small part. If it's half seawater...

Salted drinks are still used to induce vomiting when one drinks to much alchool.

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve!

 

The always prudent Cato Majoris advise you how to recognize wine watering ("De Agricultura", Ch. CXI):

 

"If you wish to determine whether wine has been watered or not: Make a vessel of ivy wood and put in it some of the wine you think has water in it. If it contains water, the wine will soak through and the water will remain, for a vessel of ivy wood will not hold wine. "

 

Unfortunately, this method was probably useless.

[Andrew Dalby]

There was a feeling among Greek and Roman physicians that straight wine was bad for people -- except when prescribed by the physicians themselves! They made exceptions, however. Women, because their constitution contains more water, were better able to absorb straight wine. Children's constitutions contain very little water, so they must be given wine with a lot of water (or, some said, no wine at all).

 

But it was noted that wine imparted energy to older people (I think I must be reaching that stage), so they drank it straight whenever they liked (anyway, considering the respect generally paid to age, no one was going to stop them).

 

As for the physicians, they did a lot of tasting. For scientific reasons, of course! Galen's tasting notes on Italian and Asia Minor wines are particularly interesting.

[Pertinax]

I particularly approve of the Galenic method. Though my notes aren't too well ordered for some reason.