The Triarii

[roman wargamer]

So, what were the reasons for Marius doing away with them ?

 

 

That's an interesting question......Anyone have an answer or theory ? Germanicus

 

reply

 

in my in-depth guess work,

 

the Romanus Legiones in J. Caesar time

 

have this structural organizational formation in the Primum Acies

 

1. H antepilanus

2. H prior

3. H posterior

 

the H antepilanus was actually the origin of Phalanx: who have the same shields and weapons.

But the form, movement and tactic was modified to suit the de-tachment tactic and strategy.

 

so the legio in real sense remain a phalanx but the new Hastatus, Principes and Triarii become

 

the new Main Line of Battle and the H antepilanus become a secondary line of defense.

[Germanicus]

so the legio in real sense remain a phalanx but the new Hastatus, Principes and Triarii become

 

the new Main Line of Battle and the H antepilanus become a secondary line of defense.

 

But Roman Wargamer - In Julius Caesars time (Circa Gallic Wars)They didn't carry the same weapons and Triarii. They carried Pila, Scutum and Gladius, like all the other legionaries.

 

What I want to know is why Marius, half a century before J Caesar, did away with the Triarii and their hoplight equipment.

[roman wargamer]

then what is the cursores doing in their front.

[Germanicus]

then what is the cursores doing in their front.

 

You are making no sense.

[roman wargamer]

Germanicus

 

But - In Julius Caesars time (Circa Gallic Wars)They didn't carry the same weapons and Triarii.

They carried Pila, Scutum and Gladius, like all the other legionaries.

 

reply

 

the H antepilanus have different shield and weapons compared to Hastatus.

 

the H prior and posterior have different shield and weapons compared to H antepilanus.

 

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What I want to know is why Marius, half a century before J Caesar,

did away with the Triarii...

 

reply

 

the Triarii in the new Legio needs to be a veteran and of high social status...

 

... which Marius can not have... when the senate refuse to raise the legio...

 

and Marius do away with it by recruiting ordinary citizen.

 

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and cursores was the light infantry and the antepilanus was the medium infantry

 

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so what i mean... they carry all the old organization ( modified) and added the new Legiones

 

...the new Hastatus, Principes and Triarii ( Triarii , but not the veteran )

[Furius Venator]

Roman, be so good as to clear something up for me.

 

In my innocence I have always assumed that the legion in Caesar's time was made up as follows:

 

10 cohorts, each made up of

 

6 centuries of (theoretically) 80 men each.

 

Every man carries scutum, gladius and pilum and wears mail.

 

There is no difference in organisation and equipment between or within any given unit be it century or cohort.

 

This is, I believe the generally accepted view.

 

Your view seems to differ from this. Will you now please clearly spell out how you believe the Caesarian legion was organised and equipped.

[Prometheus]

Even until the musket 'similar' tactics as those used before the romans could be used.

 

I am sure there were professional flexible pike units after the decline of the knight.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Prometheus

[roman wargamer]

Furius Venator Question?

 

I have always assumed that the legion in Caesar's time was...

 

Every man carries scutum, gladius and pilum and wears mail.

 

There is no difference in organisation and equipment between or within any given unit...

 

This is, I believe the generally accepted view.

 

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my apology for the late reply Furius,

 

the internet cafe line broke down, and it is late night , i was so hungry from work and over fatigue.

 

i normally visit only twice a week , for two to four hours a visit , i also need to read my in box.

 

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for the cohors level, try looking for my old thread titled "The Cohors." for brief into.

 

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i will post you a neglected question!

 

who guard the legate from a command vantage point position? who they are? from where?

if they do not belong from the 10 cohors? so is legio really only 10 cohors? or what if...?

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Q? Every man carries scutum, gladius and pilum and wears mail.

 

There is no difference in organisation and equipment between or within any given unit...

 

reply

 

then let see, let's try to pick a...a....a... the line of men in the front of the "Signiferi."

 

here it is how i know them,

 

 

the men shield and weapon;

 

shield = koile

 

spear = lonche

 

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it speaks for itself... that there is really a difference... in shield and weapon.

[Hitoriki Batosai]

It could work only if the men were extemily skilled and could hold the position throught a battle while taking some casualtys.

Another thing. the spears would have to be the 8 foot long hoplite spears not the 18 foot levy men spears. If they were 18 feet long the romans could not carry thier shields as well and they would cover such little land in one days time.

 

 

P.S. I was wondering if cavery hit hop lites or even elephaunts do you think the spear could posibly snap in two?

[roman wargamer]

Hitoriki Batosai question?

 

It could work only if the men were extemily skilled.

 

reply

 

Roman legio nomally train for a year before being send to war ( more or less , depends on war situation )

 

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If they were 18 feet long the romans could not carry thier shields as well and they would cover such little land in one days time.

 

reply

 

they use the shield as umbrella and the spear is on the right shoulder in the march.

 

the use a standard military march cadence and a standard marching distance.

 

 

 

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if it hit hoplites or even elephants do you think the spear could posibly snap in two?

 

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yes , it is highly possible upon strong impact and if it hit a solid thing or part.

 

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Hitoriki are you Nippon, your name sake seems to suggest, no need to reply if you don't like to.

[Rameses the Great]

Just to clarify something:

 

The Roman triarii was meant to protect the bulk of the army by wating on the sides and picking off the flanking horseman. The Greek phalanx hoplite was the staple of Greek infantry. It was basically their whole army. The triarii carried small spears and normal customary Roman long round shields. The Greek army was based on their hoplites the Romans were based on their legions. In order to have a strong frontal attack by the legions the triarii is needed to protect, the sides.

 

There is no comparison, spearman were used internationally to take down on coming cavalry. Hellenestic phalanx was meant to be the infantry. And even though the phalanx term can be used internationally, the hoplite is a specialty of Greece.

Edited May 6, 2006 by Rameses the Great

[roman wargamer]

Rameses the Great question?

 

Just to clarify something:

The Roman triarii was meant to protect the bulk of the army by wating on the sides...

 

reply

 

here it is ... how i as know it , the Roman Legio ... the J. Caesar time and era.

 

the Cohors men of war

 

1 first manipular line = the Hastatus line

 

2 second manipular line = the Princeps

 

3 third manipular line = the Triarii

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the Hastati normally hold and maintain the first line of defense

 

the Princeps normally do the counter attack if oppotunity permits

as the situation of the enemy deteriorate and worsen

...and flanking defense of the cohors if the cohors situation worsen.

 

the Triarii as the name say's the third manipular line men ,

 

normally hold and maintain the last line of defense. ( of the cohors )

 

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[Furius Venator]

In Caesar's time the maniple was obsolete as a tactical unit. Neither is it appropriate to label those lines Hastati, Principes and Triarii as they were no longer grouped by age class in that way.

 

The Romans did not invariably form up in three lines, sometimes they only used two.

[Germanicus]

Just to clarify something:

 

The Roman triarii was meant to protect the bulk of the army by wating on the sides and picking off the flanking horseman. The Greek phalanx hoplite was the staple of Greek infantry. It was basically their whole army. The triarii carried small spears and normal customary Roman long round shields. The Greek army was based on their hoplites the Romans were based on their legions. In order to have a strong frontal attack by the legions the triarii is needed to protect, the sides.

 

There is no comparison, spearman were used internationally to take down on coming cavalry. Hellenestic phalanx was meant to be the infantry. And even though the phalanx term can be used internationally, the hoplite is a specialty of Greece.

 

Your answer does not clarify - it just muddies the waters.

The Triarii carried Hoplite spears, there is a direct comparison. The Triarii were thrown into the battle when required, and were the veteran troops, otherwise they knelt on the ground behind their sheilds, and the Hastati and Principes until called into action. They were not placed on each wing to protect from cavalry - give me a source for this to prove otherwise. This information comes from Goldsworthy - The Complete Roman Army, but you could also read about it in Polybius.

[Rameses the Great]

Your answer does not clarify - it just muddies the waters.

The Triarii carried Hoplite spears, there is a direct comparison. The Triarii were thrown into the battle when required, and were the veteran troops, otherwise they knelt on the ground behind their sheilds, and the Hastati and Principes until called into action. They were not placed on each wing to protect from cavalry - give me a source for this to prove otherwise. This information comes from Goldsworthy - The Complete Roman Army, but you could also read about it in Polybius.

 

I've read it, thanks for the suggestion though!

 

Anyways, I'm not talking about the hastati and principes era, I am talking about the legionary era. Even though they could be used in battle, their best function like any other spearman was to take down on coming cavalry. During the legion era, they were a force, and unbeatable but only going forward. If a legion was attacked from the sides or the rear it spelled great trouble for them.

 

I must say though, the hoplite spearman thing is different. The triarii spears are around 8" while the hoplites is the minimum 18." (Sorry I am using the customary system.) As I said the phalanxe was brought over by the Ptolomies and the hoplite was a specialty of Greece, and Greece only. The triarii may have had some similar characteristics, but the hoplite was a copyright of the Greek military.

 

The Greek phalanxe is meant to mow down armies without having to engage hand to hand. The triarii is the backbone of the Roman army that are veterans. That is a huge difference from the military standpoint.