Roman Explorers?

[caldrail]

Do you think that it's possible that romans did not want to know much about the outside world?

The imperial ideology was that Rome have conquered the whole civilised world. Showing that large areas exist outside Rome will put to question the universality of the empire making it just a big state.

"Urbis et orbis" means nothing if you know geography.

I read a similar theory about the reasons why the chinese Ming put a stop to the succesful sea voyages that had taken them to Africa and Arabia.

 

I think the romans were very curious about the outside world, but travel in those days was probably more risky than today (though you have wonder sometimes). Travel to foreign places is easy today, andI think we forget that. To go a hundred miles outside of the roman road system was a real expedition. It took time and effort, and some survival technique in many cases. The roman world was secure by comparison and in any case romans tended to look inwardly despite the conquests of the late republic. After all, Rome was the center of civilisation in their minds, so why would one want put themselves to so much trouble? Merchants of course did so because it might be profitable, and much exploration was done by them for commercial reasons. They needed new sources, markets, and commodities. These merchants were a useful source of information too.

 

In terms of military conquest, Rome began by annexing or conquering regions with an established infrastructure. As they reached the wild frontier however, it was no longer a case of exporting roman culture by trade or sword, it was now a case of colonisation. Romans never really got to grips with that, although prior to the Varian Disaster they were beginningto make inroads into the german forests - recent finds have uncovered abandoned roman towns much further into Germany than once thought. Therefore military exploration was restricted by policy and geography. Their lack of seamanship meant they would never expand naval power much beyond the mediterranean.

 

Romans were well aware of cultures in India and China just to mention two. Quite possibly they knew of others deepr in the african continent. Trade was active in all sorts of things, up to and including wild animals. That I think, was the focus of roman exploration.

[WotWotius]

Only slightly on-topic, but who was the Carthaginian who travelled by sea to Britain?

 

You may be thinking of Pytheas, a Greek from Marseille (Massilia), who explored Britain and the Baltic c.330 BC and went on to 'Thule', six days' sailing from northern Britain (possibly Iceland?).

 

The Carthaginians did have some sort of prsence in Britain. This statment is based on the findings of Phoenician in South Cornwall.

 

I also have some examples of Roman exploration.

1) It is mentioned in the Agricola that a fleet was ordered to navigate the entire circumference of Britain.

 

2) There is also a coastal sight in Ireland with a walled enclosure (roughly the size of a auxilary fort) containing coins from the time of Vespasian-Trajan. It may have been a trading post.

 

3) Augustus' Res Gestae makes a reference to envoys from India arriving in Rome...maybe the Roman did the same thing in India.

[Pantagathus]

The Carthaginians did have some sort of prsence in Britain. This statment is based on the findings of Phoenician in South Cornwall.

 

They traded with the area for tin but I wouldn't say they had a 'presence' there. They effected this trade through intermediaries in the long established Atlantic trade networks. Something to the general effect of:

 

Carthaginians--->Turdetani/Lusitani--->Artabari--->Aquitani--->Veneti/Osismii--->Cornwall traders

 

So Phoenician/Carthaginian goods made their way through the intermediaries as trade goods or gifts for the local elites.

[Pertinax]

The interesting thing about the sequence that Pantagathus has posted is that the "cornish merchants" or their representatives appear to have no physical seaborne presence whatsoever, the Venetii (and associates) were the sole possible channel for products. I wonder if the whole chain is a series of strict monopolies by interset area? I note that the heavy pier installations at Poole in Dorset are attested as being from 250BC -with later Romanised overbuilding, once again quite a history of indirect (?)contact

[Pantagathus]

The interesting thing about the sequence that Pantagathus has posted is that the "cornish merchants" or their representatives appear to have no physical seaborne presence whatsoever,

 

Both Diodorus & Strabo (probably coming from Pytheas) said that the tin merchants met the intermediaries from across the channel (Veneti & Osismii) just off shore on a specific island set aside for trade. The locals used coracles (a hide & wood boat) to get to it with their load.

[Pertinax]

The interesting thing about the sequence that Pantagathus has posted is that the "cornish merchants" or their representatives appear to have no physical seaborne presence whatsoever,

 

Both Diodorus & Strabo (probably coming from Pytheas) said that the tin merchants met the intermediaries from across the channel (Veneti & Osismii) just off shore on a specific island set aside for trade. The locals used coracles (a hide & wood boat) to get to it with their load.

Do I detect echoes of the ceremonial and etiquette of the " God of Boundaries" in the nature of this particular method of exchange?

Edited June 9, 2006 by Pertinax

[Pantagathus]

Do I detect echoes of the ceremonial and etiquette of the " God of Boundaries" in the nature of this particular method of exchange?

 

Why of course!

[Northern Neil]

Back in the early '50's, Mortimer Wheeler wrote a small book called 'Rome Beyond the Frontiers'. He makes reference to Roman ports and trading centres in India and on the Baltic coast. I have not found any subsequent work which backs this up, however.

[Pantagathus]

Back in the early '50's, Mortimer Wheeler wrote a small book called 'Rome Beyond the Frontiers'. He makes reference to Roman ports and trading centres in India and on the Baltic coast. I have not found any subsequent work which backs this up, however.

 

I've seen Lionel Casson treat those subjects in various articles & his Travel in the Ancient World

[Leguleius]

Do I detect echoes of the ceremonial and etiquette of the " God of Boundaries" in the nature of this particular method of exchange?

 

No doubt it was also a good way for the traders to feel more secure against the threat of robbers / royal extorsion. On an island you can see the bad boys coming...(!)

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

Juba II of Mauretania (Morocco) explored the Canary Islands. There's a Roman Explorer for ya.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Antiochus of Seleucia

[WotWotius]

Both Diodorus & Strabo (probably coming from Pytheas) said that the tin merchants met the intermediaries from across the channel (Veneti & Osismii) just off shore on a specific island set aside for trade. The locals used coracles (a hide & wood boat) to get to it with their load.

 

I remember reading about that island. It is believed to modern day St Michael's Mount, just off the coast of Cornwall.

 

Juba II of Mauretania (Morocco) explored the Canary Islands. There's a Roman Explorer for ya.

 

Yes, I believe that was during the time of Augustus. Does anybody have any information on the expedition?

Edited August 16, 2006 by WotWotius

[Primus Pilus]

Both Diodorus & Strabo (probably coming from Pytheas) said that the tin merchants met the intermediaries from across the channel (Veneti & Osismii) just off shore on a specific island set aside for trade. The locals used coracles (a hide & wood boat) to get to it with their load.

 

I remember reading about that island. It is believed to modern day St Michael's Mount, just off the coast of Cornwall.

 

Juba II of Mauretania (Morocco) explored the Canary Islands. There's a Roman Explorer for ya.

 

Yes, I believe that was during the time of Augustus. Does anybody have any information on the expedition?

 

He may be the one that supposedly populated the island with prisoners or slaves or some such thing? My recollection is a bit fuzzy and I don't know the source.

 

Technically though, I don't believe Juba was a Roman (citizen).

[WotWotius]

Technically though, I don't believe Juba was a Roman (citizen).

 

After he publicly spared Juba's life when he was displayed in a triumphal procession, Julius Caesar paid for his education in Rome and he was raised as a royal hostage. I assume that like other client hostages (e.g. Arminius of the Cherusci), Juba received Roman citizenship.

Edited August 16, 2006 by WotWotius

[Primus Pilus]

Technically though, I don't believe Juba was a Roman (citizen).

 

After he publicly spared Juba's life when he was displayed in a triumphal procession, Julius Caesar paid for his education in Rome and he was raised as a royal hostage. I assume that like other client hostages (e.g. Arminius of the Cherusci), Juba received Roman citizenship.

 

Very well could be as many client kingdom royal families were afforded such an honors.