Roman Explorers?

[Horatius]

Seen this today and it started me thinking, I am not particuarly good at that and combined with my superficial knowledge of history I thought I would turn to you folks for opinions.Didn't see anything on the subject in search. "For a society that tried to build a world empire, the Romans had a mind-numbing lack of interest in geography. We have records of one Roman legion crossing the Sahara, some trading missions to India, and one diplomatic mission to China, and that is the totality of Roman exploration. The Romans never went into the Baltic, or explored Ireland, or penetrated Eastern Europe. Very few Romans wrote about neighboring cultures or languages." http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/CosmosNotes/cosmos6.htm So why not any great Roman explorers? Most great cultures have at least one it seems.Not really looking for what if scenarios but speculation on what in the Roman psyce would account for this apathy, if it is indeed true. OH! and most of all are there records of a legion crossing the Sahara? I can't find anything on that at all. Sounds intriguing though. Why on earth would they do such a thing .

Edited April 20, 2006 by Horatius

[PerfectimusPrime]

I think it's rather unavoidable that some Romans would've traveled to Ireland, given how close it was to the Roman south. I recall hearing that Romans knew about Denmark, Skandinavia, and even about ancient Finns, who were, acording to an old history book I've read, rather accurately described.

 

I do not believe that a legion could cross Sahara, since that was only done by hardened merchants. Camels were introduced to Sahara, IIRC, from asia, during the rise of the Empire, so I think there weren't many merchants, skilled enough to cross Sahara, yet.

[Pantagathus]

I don't think the Legion they are thinking of crossed the Sahara, they must be thinking of the one who crossed over the Atlas Mts into part of the Sahara to whip up on some bad Mauritanians (if my memory serves me correctly...)

 

As to the point of Roman exploration... I have honestly read (and own) most every treatment on the subject of Ancient Explorers published in the last ~150 years (minus Cary & Worthington which I've only lightly consulted because I do not own a private copy yet) and it is very safe to say that the Romans really seemed to have given a $h!# less about learning this stuff for themselves unless they just happened to be somewhere new during a conquest.

 

All true scientific enquiry in regards to expanding knowledge of geography seems to have been left to others (mostly the Greeks) under their influence.

 

The closest I can think of a truely Roman sponsered expedition of exploration was done by Polybius (who as we know was Greek). Scipio apparently indulged his friends curiosity and allowed him (using a roman squadron) to attempt to retrace the Carthaginian Hanno's journey along the coast of west Africa from centuries before.

 

Unfortunately Polybius' account of the journey did not survive.

 

There was one other in the Arabian desert by Romans I think but I can't remember specifics. It wasn't very fun for them from what I do recall.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Only slightly on-topic, but who was the Carthaginian who travelled by sea to Britain?

[Horatius]

Sounds like Himilico from what I can see at this website http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/geoghi...ts/proutes.html Thats about all I can find out just by website searches. That account of Hannos encounter with Gorillas is pretty funny too.

[Pantagathus]

Only slightly on-topic, but who was the Carthaginian who travelled by sea to Britain?

 

I believe that it was Himlico's intent to go there but I'm not sure based on the evidence in the Ora Maritima that he went to where he intended to go...

 

It's my personal belief that the Iberian brokers of Atlantic tin whom the Phoenicians had so long dealt with had one over on the Carthaginian admiral. It seems likely that to keep from being cut out of the trade loop the Iberians may have mislead this Carthaginian attempt to find Britain for themselves.

 

It sounded to me from reading the acount in Ora Maritima that he headed west and not north...

 

In that vein, I agree with some scholar's speculations that Himlico was at some point in the Saragossa Sea.

[Primus Pilus]

Pliny the elder may not have been the sort of explorer that we typically think of in regards to discovering new lands... but his natural histories contains many elements of exploration. Perhaps it is more scientific discovery than exploration per se, but considering his death while investigating the eruption of Vesuvius and we can clearly identify an adventurous spirit.

 

I suppose Caesar provides an element as an explorer as well. His intentions at the head of an army were clearly different than what we would associate with men such as Columbus and his personal motivations have been well debated around here, but his expeditions to Britain were at least exploratory by default.

[Pantagathus]

I suppose Caesar provides an element as an explorer as well.

 

He was exactly who I had in mind when I said "Unless they just happened to be somewhere new during a conquest"

 

[Leguleius]

Only slightly on-topic, but who was the Carthaginian who travelled by sea to Britain?

 

You may be thinking of Pytheas, a Greek from Marseille (Massilia), who explored Britain and the Baltic c.330 BC and went on to 'Thule', six days' sailing from northern Britain (possibly Iceland?).

 

His 'On the Ocean' is lost but Prof. Barry Cunliffe has written a speculative recreation of his travels from the references that survive in other works: The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek. It's an interesting read though the source material is rather thinly spread.

 

I'm not familair with Roman contacts with China. When did they happen and what came out of them?

 

Tom

[caldrail]

Such contact was tenuous and via a long trade route. There was no diplomacy between them although both empires knew of each others existence. Roman gold reached china, chinese silk reached Rome.

[Plautus]

Does anybody recall a few years ago a story of some archaeologists in Brazil were trying to get permits to explore what they claimed was the remains of an ancient Roman merchant ship that wound up in a sheltered bay in Brazil? I guess theoretically a ship blown off course off the coast of Hispania could have gotten caught in the transoceanic currents that Columbus and the Portugese knew about and been sent across the Atlantic. What ever happened to that story?

[Pantagathus]

What ever happened to that story?

 

Story first broke in ~1982. Based on amphorae (of a Mauritanian/Morrocan type), the find seemed to be genuine. I think the Brazilian Government kept it underwraps because of Portugese nationalism and Italian imigrants demanding citizenship or some such hooey...

[Kosmo]

Do you think that it's possible that romans did not want to know much about the outside world?

The imperial ideology was that Rome have conquered the whole civilised world. Showing that large areas exist outside Rome will put to question the universality of the empire making it just a big state.

"Urbis et orbis" means nothing if you know geography.

I read a similar theory about the reasons why the chinese Ming put a stop to the succesful sea voyages that had taken them to Africa and Arabia.

[Virgil61]

Polybius was said to have made a journey along the coast of Africa on a trip possibly funded by Scipio. I've seen the reference but can't remember where.

[Pantagathus]

Polybius did indeed, in an effort to retrace the voyage of Hanno.

 

Apparently it was documented in his now lost later books on geography. I do believe Strabo is to thank for letting us know that the voyage occured and was once well documented.