Roman Geography and Cartography

[Zurawski]

Does anyone know how the Romans and other nations of ancient times knew the shape of the land?

 

The romans had a very accurate idea of italys shape and i dont know how they worked it out.

I've heard of some kind of Shadow Technique or something, how does that work?

 

 

Any answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

 

 

Zurawski.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Does anyone know how the Romans and other nations of ancient times knew the shape of the land?

 

The Romans had pretty accurate tools for surveying. The grommet and that thingamabob they used for measuring distances would have allowed them to accurately lay out a grid. From there, it's possible to estimate the rest (essentially using the logic underlying the calculation of the area of an irregular curve--which had been known since Archimedes).

 

PS Shouldn't this fall in the Humanities folder?

Edited April 16, 2006 by M. Porcius Cato

[Primus Pilus]

PS Shouldn't this fall in the Humanities folder?

 

Agreed... moved and title edited.

 

As for Roman cartography... Ptolemy was actually quite detailed and using astronomy and mathematics was among the first to develop a system of coordinates roughly equal to that of Latitude and Longitude. While the cartography appears largely unrecognizable compared to more detailed modern maps, the accompanying text, as well as the earlier work of Strabo clearly illustrates an understanding of geography.

 

Strabo

Ptolemy

[caldrail]

Maps were derived from the work of surveyors and sailors. All maps were hand drawn, rare, and therefore valuable. They would also look a bit basic to our eyes too.

[Pantagathus]

Stepping out of the specifically Roman scope, the study evolved roughly through these individuals: Anaximander is often attributed with starting the study for the most part.

 

Then Hecataeus of Miletus. Herodotus refined Hecataeus' map and then later folks from Alexandria like Eratosthenes made very important advancements in Astronomy in relation to cartography that made it easier to measure distances.

 

Ptolemy's map was still used as a prime reference for map makers even in the 16th Century.

 

Actually, in regards to that, one of my favorite things is how all the Hapgood-Hancock lovers bash the Ancient Greco-Roman maps but in the crude Latin text on their beloved Orontius Fineaus map, he gives credit to both Eratosthenes & Ptolemy (among others) for their work which he says parts of his map was based on! No mysterious Paleolithic Sea Kings there, just the folks you'd expect!

 

It's true that they got a lot wrong in the early days but you can see the very steady progression of knowledge into the Christian era.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Pantagathus

[caldrail]

I must apologise - I've just uncovered roman road maps that were in common use especially for couriers. They weren't geographically correct, but were drawn in a 'strip-map' format showing road junctions and rest-stops. A bit like motorway diagrams we get today.

[Leguleius]

I must apologise - I've just uncovered roman road maps that were in common use especially for couriers. They weren't geographically correct, but were drawn in a 'strip-map' format showing road junctions and rest-stops. A bit like motorway diagrams we get today.

 

Really interesting topic.

 

Caldrail must I think be refering to the Tabula Peutingeriana, a 12th entury copy of a schematic map showing the imperial road system (the cursus publicus) from the early 5th Century.

 

Given the Roman's surveying ability (see e.g. the Forma Urbis Romae) and military needs it seems strange that they would not have created good maps of the provinces (and particularly of the frontier zones). However, you would imagine any such maps would have been useful to later medieval rulers and so would have been copied. Yet we have to explain why no such copies exist! There are also numerous references to the legions being led by local guides and relying on personal knowledge (e.g. Ammianus 16, 2.1) when venturing across the frontiers, so perhaps the Romans rather neglected cartography??

 

Tom

Edited May 1, 2006 by Leguleius

[Leguleius]

Does anyone know how the Romans and other nations of ancient times knew the shape of the land?

 

The romans had a very accurate idea of italys shape and i dont know how they worked it out.

I've heard of some kind of Shadow Technique or something, how does that work?

 

Any answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

 

The Romans were well aware of the principles of trigonometry (thanks to Euclid) which are still used today to survey land for mapping.

 

Thales of Miletos supposedly used trigonometry to calculate the height of the Cheops pyramid, by comparing the length of the pyramid's shadow with that of his own shadow at the time of day when his own shadow was equal to his height. This technique was probably not of much use in mapping coastlines and mountains though(!)

 

Tom

[Leguleius]

Scholarly opinion seems to agree that the Romans really did neglect accurate map making (for whatever reason). See for example:

 

'Space in the Roman World: Its Perception and Presentation'

 

Had the Romans produced the maps we know thay had the technology to achieve, then medieval copies would presumably have looked far more like the magnificent 'Map of the Tracks of Yu' produced by Sung Dynasty China.

 

Maybe written itineries were considered good enough??

 

Tom

[Pantagathus]

Well, for whatever reason I haven't put 2&2 together until now, but there is an inportant event to mention is this thread.

 

Apparently one of Julius Caesar's dreams was to do a comprehensive geological survey of the Roman dominion. Obviously he didn't do it but somebody close to him eventually did: Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa

 

As mentioned in another thread, Pliny refers to Agrippa's "Commentarii" which was his (now lost) geographical survey. Pliny also made reference to an actual map of the world by Agrippa drawn in conjunction with the survey.

 

I can't believe none of us have caught this! From one of the Triumvirs no less!

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

As mentioned in another thread, Pliny refers to Agrippa's "Commentarii" which was his (now lost) geographical survey. Pliny also made reference to an actual map of the world by Agrippa drawn in conjunction with the survey.

 

If i'm not mistaken i seem to remember reading somewhere that Augustus had this map or chart engraved onto marble and placed in one of the temples or some other place of importance within Rome, can anyone expand on this further?

[Pantagathus]

If i'm not mistaken i seem to remember reading somewhere that Augustus had this map or chart engraved onto marble and placed in one of the temples or some other place of importance within Rome, can anyone expand on this further?

It was placed on the Porticus Vipsania not far from (or on) the Via Flaminia which was built by Agrippa's sister Vipsania Polla.

 

Pliny described the map and it was also probably used to make the Peutinger map

 

Funny that when Pliny first brings up the map in 3.3.2 he is actually chastizing Agrippa for an gross error in regards to Hispania Baetica:

 

Who is there that can entertain the belief that Agrippa, a man of such extraordinary diligence, and one who bestowed so much care on his subject, when he proposed to place before the eyes of the world a survey of that world, could be guilty of such a mistake as this, and that too when seconded by the late emperor the divine Augustus ? For it was that emperor who completed the Portico which had been begun by his sister, and in which the survey was to be kept, in conformity with the plan and descriptions of M. Agrippa.

[Ludovicus]

Are UNRV members familiar with this online resource "Maps of the Roman Empire" ? At least one map is interactive. Click on a province and you get the related resources.

 

http://intranet.dalton.org/groups/rome/RMAPS.html

Edited December 21, 2006 by Ludovicus

[WotWotius]

Although many ancient geographer may have said otherwise, that the vast majority of Romans believed that the world was disc-shaped; incidentally, this may have been one of the reasons why the British invasion force of 44 AD mutinied before setting sail (for all they knew, sailing on the Channel may result in falling off the end of the earth).

[Pantagathus]

Although many ancient geographer may have said otherwise, that the vast majority of Romans believed that the world was disc-shaped

Reference please Wotwotius?