Constantine and Christianity

[Primus Pilus]

I don't mean to be rude at all but maybe you should have a bit more respect for a man, before discrediting his achievements. In the process you are saying that he did not change for the better he changed for politics. And even as you are entitled to your opinion, I must remind you that I am entitle to mine.

 

Nobody seems to be discrediting Constantine and his achievements are quite noteworthy. Just being able to maintain a semblence of imperial order for some 3 decades is incredible in its own right. Whether he was a Christian or an opportunist is irrelevent for most of us from the historical perspective. We can understand his influence on the religion and culture of the western world regardless of his actual religious affiliation. You are attempting to paint for us a picture of Constantine as some great icon of virtue and purity when he was anything but. He was at times a quite brutal man who used any means necessary to secure and maintain his power. This is not to discredit his achievements but to point out that which we do know.

 

At any rate, one need only look at Constantine's triumphal arch in Rome which depicts images of Jupiter, Mars and Hercules after Milvian Bridge and his supposed conversion, to understand at a glance why his full conversion is doubted. Consider that his coinage continued to depict Sol Invictus prominently and it is well attributed that he had a natural affinity for Apollo (of whom the sun is a symbol). One popular theory is that Constantine viewed the Christian god as one powerful war god in a pantheon of deities and continued to use them all as necessary but that he obviously leaned towards the Sun symbols (Apollo, Sol Invictus and the Christ).

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

One popular theory is that Constantine viewed the Christian god as one powerful war god in a pantheon of deities and continued to use them all as necessary but that he obviously leaned towards the Sun symbols (Apollo, Sol Invictus and the Christ).

 

I can understand non-Christians seeing God as vengeful, powerful, and warlike, which was a common theme in the Bible. But really, how many Romans would recognize God as the equivalent of Mars. Certainly not under Diocletianus.

 

Aside- I 've really never seen the official image of Constantine. Can you tell me what Constantine really looked like and his ancestry(Italian?) was?

Edited April 14, 2006 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[Ursus]

I can understand non-Christians seeing God as vengeful, powerful, and warlike, which was a common theme in the Bible. But really, how many Romans would recognize God as the equivalent of Mars. Certainly not under Diocletianus.

 

 

Well ... actually .... imperial practice was to identify local gods with gods of the Roman pantheon. The Jewish deity, YHWH, he whom you simply call "God," was identified with several of the Olympic pantheon. Most obvious and common was Jupiter. However, there was even a school of thought that identified him with - get this - Dionysus(!).

 

Regardless of what we think of the logic of this, it's what the Romans did. A good Roman pagan would have seen the Jewish god as just another name for one of the Roman gods.

 

I have to do more research on Constantine before I can make any grand assertions. But perhaps at this stage of the game Constantine was still an imperial pagan, the Jewish god simply a local variant of an Olympian god to him, and Christ was simply a demi-god/hero/god-man among many. Remember, the nature and doctrines of Christianity weren't even codified yet, and interpretations of who and what Christ was were open to debate. It was Constantine who had to settle these debates under pressure from his bishops, and methinks Constantine simply wanted token imperial unity rather than any great Orthodoxy when he called those councils.

[znra251]

It probably took quite some time before pagan beliefs dissappeared. If I recall, even Constantine built pagan temples.

 

Guys that was BEFORE he became Christianized. God came to him in a dream to tell him to make his nation Christian. If God came to him to spread the word, why would he in turn spread paganism. Remember he was Orthodox not Catholic. He was strict and before a battle prayed to God to give him a victory, and he did. I'm pretty sure after that he destroyed pagan temples, not created them.

 

on this topic what one really must remember is that when constantine was founding his great 'christian' city of Constantinople he had a parade of pagan imagery carried through the town and distributed in its temples, and he also had a pagan philosopher/priest mark the outline of the city before constuction began.

 

As for the idea often expressed that these pagan statues were simply to be mocked, as Eusebius suggests, this really is a poor explanation, after all, it seems illogical that all those who planned to inhabit the new great city would be christians. After all, the major period of christian growth occurs in the mid to late 4th century. cf Stark, Rise of Christianity for numerical estimates.

 

Also, Constantine continued to use pagan imagery well after his conversion and this would suggest that his conversion is best considered in a Roman context and not in the context of more modern christian conversion. note the pagan imagery on the arch of constantine and continuing use of solar imagery on imperial coinage. cf. R.MacMullen, Christianising the Roman Empire and Christianity and paganism in the fourth to eighth centuries and Jones in Constantine and the conversion of Europe puts forwards a good case for constantine converting in a way which we often take out of context. essentially suggesting constantine converted to christianity within a pagan framework of religion

[Ursus]

Indeed. David Potter presents a convincing theory that Constantinople was not about religion at all- it was simply about the glory of the man who ordered its construction

 

Welcome to the forum, znra251. :-)