Gaius Octavius Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Having been educated in Catholic schools most of my life, I think it would be a mistake to assume that Catholics worships saints as deities. They certainly ask for their intercession but I don't remember that they actually pray directly to them the way they pray to Jesus and Mary. The veneration of Mary as a divine mother definitely indicates influences from the Isis cult though. Even the terminology is the same - Stella Maris, Queen of Heaven, Mother of god, etc. This is something that has no parallel in the Orthodox Church or even the earlier Gnostic beliefs of the Eastern Mediterranean. Theotokos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladius Hispaniensis Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 My mistake. I ought to read a little more about the Eastern Church Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 My mistake. I ought to read a little more about the Eastern Church Try: http://stjrussianorthodox.com/orthodoxy.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Ursus, as you might have observed, I question and am very seldom dogmatic unless I am sure. You don't know what religion, if any, I hold to. What I am trying to say is to start with the R.C. side. G.K. Chesterton was a Protestant who converted to Roman Catholicism. Try him first. I don't see what your particular religion or lack thereof has anything to do with this conversation. All I said was that I was more interested in modern scholarship than primary sources like Eusebius, as people like Eusebius were anything but objective witnesses to history. Sorry if I was misunderstood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgewaters Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) Isn't the veneration of saints a hold-over from paganism? Seems to me that many aspects of pagan religion were simply co-opted by the Christians. In this way pagan religion is still with us in much the same way that the Pantheon is still with us (i.e., as a Christian version of the pagan form). Sure ... the saints were a substitute for patron deities and the various cults popular in Rome. Its not really even much of a secret; one of the first steps towards beatifications is the confirmation of a "public cultus" and the whole of the saints constitute the "cult of the saints" (these are official Catholic terms!) The biggest public cultus, of course, is that of Mary, who seems to carry alot more intercessionary power and a far more diverse portfolio than, say, Diana or Vesta. The public cultus of Mary appears very much to have acted as a substitute and replacement for the cults of Vesta, Juno, and Minerva combined. Edited March 14, 2007 by edgewaters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladius Hispaniensis Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) The public cultus of Mary appears very much to have acted as a substitute and replacement for the cults of Vesta, Juno, and Minerva combined.And Isis too, if I'm not mistaken Edited March 14, 2007 by Gladius xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Help me out with this: 1. The meaning of 'sainthood' is to be within the Beatific Vision. Why would 'saints' be acclaimed and proclaimed such by the early communicants (who were elite, secretive groupings), if their purpose was to proclaim a religion of salvation; to guide people into the True Light and away from paganistic beliefs? 2. Did the 'conspiracy' proceed in this fashion: Some leader of a Church decided that he wanted a 'god' to replace the 'genius' of boundaries' for his own purpose. He alleges (falsely) that some deceased personage has performed 'miracles'. He then proceeds to whip up the polloi into a frenzy on this account. They, in turn, dutifully do as ordered. And thus comes about St. Judas of the Traitors! 3. If alleged 'pagans' don't believe in God, how does it come about that these same believe in the 'old gods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephele Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I couldn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) eN. Cee, your answer to three, Doesn't succeed with me! Edited March 14, 2007 by Gaius Octavius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgewaters Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 The meaning of 'sainthood' is to be within the Beatific Vision. Why would 'saints' be acclaimed and proclaimed such by the early communicants (who were elite, secretive groupings), if their purpose was to proclaim a religion of salvation; to guide people into the True Light and away from paganistic beliefs? For the same reason they'd Christianize pagan holidays, I suspect. One of the big strengths behind Christianity's rapid explosion was that it worked within the framework of the societies it encountered, and not just during the Roman/Dark Ages era; syncretism continued to be a huge factor in Christianity's spread even into the New World. One needs only look at Mexican or Latin American Catholicism to see how powerfully active syncretism is in Christianity - for instance, Our Lady of Guadelupe/Tonantzin, or the peculiar ways in which the Mexicans celebrate All Saints Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Many of my polytheistic acquaintances ... acknowledge the Hebrew god as readily as they acknowledge the [fill in culture of your choice] gods. They just don’t invoke the Hebrew god because they’re simply not interested. And not to sidetrack this discussion, but that is exactly my own take on things. The biggest public cultus, of course, is that of Mary, who seems to carry alot more intercessionary power and a far more diverse portfolio than, say, Diana or Vesta. The public cultus of Mary appears very much to have acted as a substitute and replacement for the cults of Vesta, Juno, and Minerva combined. I believe the biggest influence on the cult of the Virgin/Theotokos was the cult of Isis. Isis was herself a deity heavily syncretized with other Mediterranean goddesses. Help me out with this:1. The meaning of 'sainthood' is to be within the Beatific Vision. Why would 'saints' be acclaimed and proclaimed such by the early communicants (who were elite, secretive groupings), if their purpose was to proclaim a religion of salvation; to guide people into the True Light and away from paganistic beliefs? Are you assuming every founder in the church was sincerely interested in "guiding people to the True Light?" Perhaps some of the footsoldiers. But as I read history, the imperial administration was more interested in lip service and conformity than sincere belief - the new Christian establishment behaved much as the old Pagan establishment in that regard! What mattered was not whether something was true, but whether it worked. The same was true at the opposite end of the spectrum. Many people prayed to deity X because they thought Deity X gave them a good harvest or healed their illness or whatever. Shrines to Saints were often built right over shrines to pagan gods. If the locals were persuaded that the saint in question held the same efficacy in bestowing supernatural rewards as the previous local pagan god, to many it wouldn't matter. Six of one and half a dozen of another. As long as there was a supernatural force to aid in the burdens of life. I think we have to be honest about why a lot of people at both the top and the bottom go into religion - they are not looking for pure truth so much as they are looking for (what they perceive as) working solutions to their problems. Dostoevsky said it best when he said "men seek not so much God as they seek miracles." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) One needs only look at Mexican or Latin American Catholicism to see how powerfully active syncretism is in Christianity - for instance, Our Lady of Guadelupe/Tonantzin, or the peculiar ways in which the Mexicans celebrate All Saints Day. This is a result of the people and not the hierarchy of the R.C. Ursus, I believe that most 'preachers' were and are scoundrels. Perhaps a very few really believe. Emperors, preachers and politicians have always used religion for their purposes relying on the credulity of believers. Yet no one has ever reasonably disproven the existence of God or the gods. You might wish to consider St. Thomas' proofs of the existence of God. You might even become a Dominican! Edited March 14, 2007 by Gaius Octavius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgewaters Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 This is a result of the people and not the hierarchy of the R.C. Maybe, maybe not, but irrelevant either way. Whether its officially acknowledged doctrine, an unspoken policy, or a condemned practice, a great deal syncretism occurred at all stages of Christianity's evolution, and ultimately contributed to its spread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Neil Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Arent we just talking semantics here? The Romans called a great many supernatural beings they prayed to 'gods' and it seems to me to have been an umbrella term. Since Christianity, there is of course only one being called a God; the other 'gods' are still there, though, and are still suppose to have influence. Apart from the terminology, what is the difference between the Angel Michael (a winged messanger) and the god Mercury, also a winged messenger? Given the slight similarity of name, they might even be the same guy! Again, what is the difference between having gods who look after various aspects of life, and later on having saints who do the same thing? No difference at all. Saying that there is only one 'god' and calling all the other gods something else does not disguise the polytheistic and pagan roots of Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 ...this is a real interesting discussion from three years ago, so i bump this for all the folks that arrived later to this forum... cheers viggen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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