Andrew Dalby Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Nor did the vast majority of Roman inhabitants ever get to see the emperor close enough to judge his skin color. Yes, agreed! The question became more interesting, somehow, when woodcuts, etchings and (finally) photography made it possible for a wide public to get a new kind of image of people in public life. In quite modern times, in fact. In Roman times, coins and occasional statues were what most people saw. Beautiful portraits, and completely skin-colour-free. How refreshing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germanicus Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 I just found the answer to my question re Pescennius Niger in the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology :- "His cognomen of Niger is said to have been derived from the extreme swarthiness of his throat, although otherwise fair skinned and of ruddy complexion" I think it's based on information in Dion Cassius. In Roman times, coins and occasional statues were what most people saw. Beautiful portraits, and completely skin-colour-free. How refreshing. I saw a reconstruction of the Augustus Prima Porta statue based on traces of pigment, showing that it was originally colored, with red hair. I wonder if this was the case with other statues, but have seen(nor looked for) further evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted April 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 It is my understanding: That the 'nomen' and 'cognomen' travelled through the generations of a family in the male line. That there were a number of 'praenomen' peculiar to each family line, e.g., Caius, Decimus. That the 'cognomen' was based on a trait or occupation or physical characteristic of the founder of the family, e.g., Cicero - 'chick pea'; Rufus - 'red'; Niger - 'dark'. I have no idea what Caesar meant. That an 'agnomen' was 'awarded' to an individual for a feat or service to the state, e.g., Germanicus - 'conqueror of Germans'; Africanus - 'conqueror of Africa' (the province); Augustus - 'highest'(?), and did not travel through the family line. Which last calls to mind the question, why wasn't Caesar awarded an agnomen? Am I in need of severe correction and education? In my opinion, the 'political correctness' alluded to earlier, neither serves nor honors the intended, and is insulting as it is not necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullafelix Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 I just found the answer to my question re Pescennius Niger in the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology :- "His cognomen of Niger is said to have been derived from the extreme swarthiness of his throat, although otherwise fair skinned and of ruddy complexion" I think it's based on information in Dion Cassius. In Roman times, coins and occasional statues were what most people saw. Beautiful portraits, and completely skin-colour-free. How refreshing. I saw a reconstruction of the Augustus Prima Porta statue based on traces of pigment, showing that it was originally colored, with red hair. I wonder if this was the case with other statues, but have seen(nor looked for) further evidence. I believe that in many cases they were painted, certainly the Greeks did and I think the Romans followed suit although don't quote me on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 I have no idea what Caesar meant. Caesar = hairy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furius Venator Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Caes ar = hairy Rather ironic considering his advancing baldness... I too was under the impression that statues were often painted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted April 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 I have no idea what Caesar meant. Caesar = hairy. I knew that I could count on you. Thanks. Now, how about the rest of my twaddle? Does it hold water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Caesar = hairy Rather ironic considering his advancing baldness... I too was under the impression that statues were often painted. Yes, they were. What I said was that they were 'skin-colour-free'. I really meant that, so far as I know, when you painted statues you used conventional colours and didn't aim to reproduce an individual's complexion or pigmentation. If someone knows otherwise, please say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I might add that so far as anyone has attempted restoration of cult figures in "temple re-creations" we see only a conventional palate in terms of room and artefact decoration.The Syrian Lady at Birdoswald looks very Roman despite being the cult figure for a Syrian Cohort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I have no idea what Caesar meant. Caesar = hairy. I knew that I could count on you. Thanks. Now, how about the rest of my twaddle? Does it hold water? I think agnomina were extremely rare in Caesar's time. Perhaps he would have needed to rest on his laurels a bit longer (avoiding the Senate House on the Ides of March) to get an agnomen. But, by Germanicus's time, Augustus and his family were changing the 'honours system'. Would others agree with this as an answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Ave Pantagathus: Did you read my post with a jug of falerno at hand? Actually, I thought that the BBC was wrong, so I thought that I would go to the Oracles to get the right skinney. :notworthy: I wasn't calling you out my friend! Just poking at the issue as I believe was your intent to post it. I do blame lack of tack on abusable substances though, not falerno but definitely a fermented beverage brewed by a Flemming. P.S. Where is that place that you are from? Have you ever read Aristophanes' Birds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germanicus Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 What I said was that they were 'skin-colour-free'. I really meant that, so far as I know, when you painted statues you used conventional colours and didn't aim to reproduce an individual's complexion or pigmentation. If someone knows otherwise, please say! Yes I concur, was just splitting hairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Unlike Trajan who is referred to as a provincial because his family was from Italica Hispania (Seville). Septimus Severus was quite likely a Phoenician. While Trajan appears to have been a displaced Italian (the Ulpius clan was from Umbria) unless the Traianus line was adopted into the Ulpian as some suggest, there seems to be no record of a Roman or Italian Severus line. Personally it seems very likely that Severus was the first true provincial (non Italian) emperor. Poor old Cato the Elder would have been rolling in his proverbial grave to know a Carthaginian ruled Rome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted April 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 (edited) P.S. Where is that place that you are from? Have you ever read Aristophanes' Birds? Nope! Right now I am wandering through 'Bleak House' and rcovering from falling out of bed, whacking my head on a dumb bell and getting a 1" gash on the noggin for my efforts. You're making my life so much easier. Thanks! I'll cheat anyway. 'Cloud Cuckooland', aye! Sounds interesting. Have to get at it - soon. P. S. Pentagathus, no umbrage taken. Had it been so, you should have experienced my deadly venom. :fish: Edited April 10, 2006 by Gaius Octavius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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