Severus

[Gaius Octavius]

While cruising through the BBC site, I came across an area where they were celebrating 'Black Month'. They mentioned that North Africans were stationed at Hadrian's Wall, and claimed that they were black. Fair enough. Then they claimed that the Emperor Severus was black as he was born in North Africa. They show an image of Severus on a coin. He doesn't look Negroid to me. A person being born in North Africa or Spain doesn't make him African or Celtic. Political correctness?

[docoflove1974]

As far as I was aware of, the North Africans, by and large, are not Negroid, but a combination of many Mediterranean/Semitic groups of peoples. Carthaginians were Semitic-speaking, for example--modern Libyans are a good example. The Berbers of the Morocco area are also not Negroid. Even the ancient Egyptians were not Negroid--but their neighbors to the south, the Nubians, were.

 

Perhaps there are others on here with exact references, but much about Severus = Negroid just because he's North African doesn't set right with me.

[Pantagathus]

 

Oh my, this question again?

 

GO, I imagine that you of all people do indeed see it as political correctness but in this case what is at all correct about it?

 

Africa does not = black! If anything he was semitic!

[Virgil61]

While cruising through the BBC site, I came across an area where they were celebrating 'Black Month'. They mentioned that North Africans were stationed at Hadrian's Wall, and claimed that they were black. Fair enough. Then they claimed that the Emperor Severus was black as he was born in North Africa. They show an image of Severus on a coin. He doesn't look Negroid to me. A person being born in North Africa or Spain doesn't make him African or Celtic. Political correctness?

 

I've seen that site before and it's a mess. Severus was, according to at least one ancient source--Historia Augusta--of Phoenician and Italian descent--father and mother respectively. His family was of the equestrian class and traced itself to Leptis Magna an old Phoenician trading colony.

[Germanicus]

Everything I've read indicates he was Phoenician and Italian.

 

One curious thing though - what did the name Niger refer to ? See this quote below, According to Dion and Herod, who were subsequently quoted by Gibbon :-

 

A verse in everyones mouth at the time, seems to express the general opinion of the three rivals; ['The Black candidate(i.e. Niger) is the best, the African (i.e. Septimus Severus) is a good candidate, the white candidate (i.e Albinus) is the worst']

 

So here Pescennius Niger is refered to as the black candidate, no doubt because of his name, but what was the reason for the cognomen ? Did it refer to his color ? I've come across the name many times in my reading, attached to soldiers, officials, seems quite a common name.

[Lost_Warrior]

Could it in some way refer to the Niger river? Or was that river named much later? (geography is totally not my area of study lol)

[Rameses the Great]

North Africa made up of Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco were not black nations. Thats why they have them under North Africans, or referred to later by the Europeans as 'white Africa.' Black supremecy in these areas has led many to believe that Africans have dominated the region. When the Nubians invaded lower Egypt, also known as northen Egypt, they started putting the white pharaohs in the image of the Africans. Hannibal Barca was painted as being black when in all really in ancient texts he was closer to beeing Roman. They believe also that Jesus was black when in all actuality he wasn't. Like you guys have smartly added Servus was white. The Carthaginians migated from Phoeniecia modern day Lebanon. I've been to a North African nation in Egypt, and I have not seen an African there. Many texts and particularly history channels show it the wrong way. Nubians are not Egyptians they are from Sudan migrating to Egypt. Most of North Africa is inbabited by the extreme norhtern areas which are conceivably white. Uninhabitted areas such as southern Moracco, Algeria, Libya, and Egypt are where I can see incursions of Africans but no where else. They were soldiers, but no text of them playing a significant role was actually proven.

 

So to answer the main question, no Africans did not dominate northern Africa. They were recruited for soldier duty, and nothing more.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Rameses the Great

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

So here Pescennius Niger is refered to as the black candidate, no doubt because of his name, but what was the reason for the cognomen ? Did it refer to his color ? I've come across the name many times in my reading, attached to soldiers, officials, seems quite a common name.

 

In latin, the word for black is niger(masculine form, it's an adjectible word : niger, -a, -um).

In contrast, the word for white in latin is albus, -a, -um. Note that they are contrasting words meant for each other. They either mean black/white or lucky/unlucky or unfavorable.

 

So most likely, Pescennius Niger was either very dark skinned or unlucky or some other characteristic. Most likely, it refers the skin color, not really central African dark, but just really tannish dark. I deduct this because the only other meaning for cognomen would be 'unlucky' or ominous(not really good for superstitious Romans).

Edited April 8, 2006 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[Germanicus]

So most likely, Pescennius Niger was either very dark skinned or unlucky or some other characteristic.

 

Thanks Flavius - I suppose it could also refer to his personality ?

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

So most likely, Pescennius Niger was either very dark skinned or unlucky or some other characteristic.

 

Thanks Flavius - I suppose it could also refer to his personality ?

 

The thing is, if it were to refer to his personality. eg., you want to say that he's lucky, the Romans would simply choose miserus or infelicis as the adjective instead of niger which most obvious even back then and til today, the Romans would use it to distinguish skin color. Take another example,eg. Constantinus Chlorus, --- the adj. Chlorus refers to his pale white skin. Niger would be used similarly in the same sense.

 

Edit: I just thought of something. I was thinking of albus, which is easily used to describe a person's "beard"(maybe hair color too) like Frederick Barbossa's later on with his red beard. So niger could be describing the person's most notable facial feature.

[Sextus Roscius]

Severus's home town was the city of Leptis Magna along the coast of what is now libya. Severus however was in all likelyhood not black (unless his family had furthur back eithiopian roots or something like that) he certainly would've been semetic.

[Gaius Octavius]

 

Oh my, this question again?

 

GO, I imagine that you of all people do indeed see it as political correctness but in this case what is at all correct about it?

 

Africa does not = black! If anything he was semitic!

 

 

Ave Pantagathus:

Did you read my post with a jug of falerno at hand? Actually, I thought that the BBC was wrong, so I thought that I would go to the Oracles to get the right skinney. :notworthy:

 

P.S. Where is that place that you are from?

Edited April 8, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[sullafelix]

 

Oh my, this question again?

 

GO, I imagine that you of all people do indeed see it as political correctness but in this case what is at all correct about it?

 

Africa does not = black! If anything he was semitic!

 

 

Ave Pantagathus:

Did you read my post with a jug of falerno at hand? Actually, I thought that the BBC was wrong, so I thought that I would go to the Oracles to get the right skinney. :notworthy:

 

P.S. Where is that place that you are from?

 

Flamin' Nora here is the roundel which is another reason why people think he was black, Julia Domna was Syrian I believe and according to this he is signifcantly darker and so quite aprt from his african origins have used this to say that he was black...no-one knows, he may well have been.

 

http://faculty.cva.edu/Stout/Roman/Roundel1.jpg

 

As this is a long way into the empire peoples ethnic origins may well have been quite difficult to trace, some people moved around after all.

[Andrew Dalby]

While cruising through the BBC site, I came across an area where they were celebrating 'Black Month'. They mentioned that North Africans were stationed at Hadrian's Wall, and claimed that they were black. Fair enough. Then they claimed that the Emperor Severus was black as he was born in North Africa. They show an image of Severus on a coin. He doesn't look Negroid to me. A person being born in North Africa or Spain doesn't make him African or Celtic. Political correctness?

 

I've seen that site before and it's a mess. Severus was, according to at least one ancient source--Historia Augusta--of Phoenician and Italian descent--father and mother respectively. His family was of the equestrian class and traced itself to Leptis Magna an old Phoenician trading colony.

 

If a BBC text really says Severus was black because born in North Africa, clearly the writer of that text is racist. If we're talking about Severus's skin colour, I don't suppose we'll ever know it. If we're talking about his ethnic origin, we can get a certain way using his family's linguistic history, about which something is known. The fact that these points are recorded at all suggests that his family background is unusual for an emperor: the sources are late and not very reliable., but they are mutually consistent. Here are the four quotes I know of on the subject.

 

In his early childhood, before he had learnt his Latin and Greek letters (he was eventually a considerable scholar in both) the only game he enjoyed with his friends was to play at judges.

Historia Augusta, Severus 1.4.

 

His sister, a woman from Leptis who could scarcely speak any Latin, arrived in Rome. Very embarrassed, the emperor gave her son the broad stripe and herself a great many gifts and told her to go back home and take her son with her. The young man died soon afterwards.

Historia Augusta, Severus 15.7.

 

His voice was melodious, but retained something of an African accent even into old age.

Historia Augusta, Severus 19.9.

 

He was competent at Latin letters, an educated speaker of Greek, but readier with Punic eloquence, naturally enough, since he was born in Lepcis in the province of Africa.

Epitome de Caesaribus 20.8.

 

Now, other sources confirm that this 'Punic eloquence' really meant something: Africans (from the Roman province of Africa that is) were characterised as being especially good at public speaking and legal debate. I discussed this and gave other examples in /Empire of Pleasures/.

 

Right then, what can we get from this? 1. He had a more expensive education than his sister did. 2. His parents did not speak Latin at home, otherwise his sister would have been able to speak it. 3. He played with kids who spoke Punic; yes, that is natural for Lepcis, a Carthaginian colony in origin. 4. The whole province had three current languages, Libyan (i.e. Berber, an Afroasiatic language), Punic (offshoot of Phoenician, an Afroasiatic language of the Semitic subgroup), Latin. 5. This would relate to ethnic origins, which would be a mixture of North African (Hamitic in old-fashioned terms, the majority), Near Eastern (Semitic if you like, a minority), Italian (a smaller minority). Lepcis would certainly have had a mixture of North African and Near Eastern.

 

Since a similar set of ethnic origins still applies to medieval and modern north Africa, if you take a trip to Tunisia or Libya and look around you, you will probably see lots of people whose skins are about the same colour as Septimius Severus's.

[Ursus]

While cruising through the BBC site, I came across an area where they were celebrating 'Black Month'. They mentioned that North Africans were stationed at Hadrian's Wall, and claimed that they were black. Fair enough. Then they claimed that the Emperor Severus was black as he was born in North Africa. They show an image of Severus on a coin. He doesn't look Negroid to me. A person being born in North Africa or Spain doesn't make him African or Celtic. Political correctness?

 

Definitely political correctness at its worse. Everything points to a Semitic origin.

 

 

I think the question is irrelevant anyway. Romans did not seem obsessed with ethnic distinctions. Nor did the vast majority of Roman inhabitants ever get to see the emperor close enough to judge his skin color.