Viggen Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Discovery of 'Gospel of Judas' Raises Questions It is a mystery 2,000 years in the making, buried in the desert and fueled by centuries of debate and doubt, theft and deceit. The question: Was there ever a Gospel according to Judas? And if there was, what did it reveal? The mystery began to unravel almost 30 years ago, according to a new National Geographic Channel documentary. Watch the full story on ABC's "Primetime" Thursday at 10 p.m. ET and "Nightline" at 11:35 p.m. ET and get more information from National Geographic by clicking here. Watch the full documentary "The Gospel of Judas" at 8 p.m. ET Sunday, April 9, on the National Geographic Channel. full article at ABC News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Discovery of 'Gospel of Judas' Raises Questions It is a mystery 2,000 years in the making, buried in the desert and fueled by centuries of debate and doubt, theft and deceit. The question: Was there ever a Gospel according to Judas? And if there was, what did it reveal? The mystery began to unravel almost 30 years ago, according to a new National Geographic Channel documentary. Watch the full story on ABC's "Primetime" Thursday at 10 p.m. ET and "Nightline" at 11:35 p.m. ET and get more information from National Geographic by clicking here. Watch the full documentary "The Gospel of Judas" at 8 p.m. ET Sunday, April 9, on the National Geographic Channel. full article at ABC News My DVR is set. Even if you aren't into the religious aspect of this story, it should be a fascinating look in the archaeology and preservation of ancient texts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rameses the Great Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 I am very religious and I don't think Judas betrayed him. Did Jesus know yes, but he did not ask him too. Judas did it for money and nothing else. He later figured out it was not right because he betrayed God. If God told him to he would not have hung himslef. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Can someone knowledgable remind me which sect has Judas as a saint, (for the reason that he was the person responsible for the seizure of Christ and hence His death as the Saviour) ? Would I be mistaken in thinking that would be a possible early Gnostic dogma or perhaps a Cathar one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted April 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Pertinax, i do not know that, but i found some intersting philosophical questions regarding Judas.. If Jesus foresees Judas' betrayal, then it may be argued that Judas has no free will, and cannot avoid betraying Jesus. If Judas cannot control his betrayal of Jesus, then he is not morally responsible for his actions. The question has been approached by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae, which differentiates between foreknowledge and predestination, and argues that the omnipotence of the divine is not sufficient grounds for eliminating the existence of free will. If Judas is sent to Hell for his betrayal, and his betrayal was a necessary step in the humanity-saving death of Jesus Christ, then Judas is being punished for saving humanity. This goes hand-in-hand with the "free will" argument, and Aquinas's Summa deals with the issue of free will in demons and other beings instrumental in the life of Jesus that are nevertheless damned. If Jesus only suffered while dying on the cross, and then ascended into Heaven, while Judas must suffer for eternity in Hell, then Judas has suffered much more for the sins of humanity than Jesus, and his role in the Atonement is that much more significant. Standard Christian dogma holds that the suffering of Jesus was infinite, and that the suffering of Jesus was not time-dependent. This position holds throughout orthodox Catholicism and many forms of Protestantism. Do Jesus' last words on the cross, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do," not apply to Judas? Is his atonement insufficient for Judas' sin(s)? regards viggen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Judas acts in a venial manner-for money-but is the instrument of the essential suffering of Christ (meaning for the redemption of mankind) .He appears to be acting with true free will.Is his sin then borne and forgiven? I suppose my original query is as regards a sect that holds to this tenent, but he is not a divine instrument? Hmm..im not much of a theologian but your quotations are useful things to turn over.If the suffering of Christ is infinite, then forgivness for Judas is possible? I will look at my Gnostic notes, im half convinced thats where the original query came from, but I havent looked at them for maybe 10 years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germanicus Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 If anyone is interested in reading the actual text - go to this link - and scroll down, there are links to 3 or 4 different translations at the bottom. It does make for interesting reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athenian1977 Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 That's a very interesting link indeed ! A little bit confusing though up to some point.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Judas acts in a venial manner-for money- Has anyone seen what those Phoenician shekels looked like? Quite a handsome coin. Melqart on the front and an Eagle on the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Can someone knowledgable remind me which sect has Judas as a saint Perhaps there is none. Maybe, like Christopher Hitchens in this Slate piece on Judas, you misunderstood something you read in Graham Greene? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted May 24, 2008 Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 There is an interesting follow-up article to the National Geographic Gospel of Judas story in latest issue of Chronicle of Higher Education. The upshot is that the effort to announce the translation was very nearly contemporaneous with the translation itself, which later scholars found to have serious errors that affect the meaning of the Gospel. From the Chronicle article: One of the seven million people who watched the National Geographic documentary was April D. DeConick. Admittedly, DeConick, a professor of biblical studies at Rice University, was not your average viewer. As a Coptologist, she had long been aware of the existence of the Gospel of Judas and was friends with several of those who had worked on the so-called dream team. It's fair to say she watched the documentary with special interest. As soon as the show ended, she went to her computer and downloaded the English translation from the National Geographic Web site. Almost immediately she began to have concerns. From her reading, even in translation, it seemed obvious that Judas was not turning in Jesus as a friendly gesture, but rather sacrificing him to a demon god named Saklas. This alone would suggest, strongly, that Judas was not acting with Jesus' best interests in mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 (edited) I'm a little uncomfortable with all this talk of 'demons', which to me seems a little more recent than roman Judaea. Still, these researchers know more than I, so if true, it shows those judaic beliefs in a new light as far as I'm concerned, especially since how little talk there is of demonology in the bible. Apart from the Revelations, the only mention I recall of demons is Jesus's dismissal of tempatation - which has to be an allegorical tale designed to underline Jesus's divinity. Further, since the story of Jesus is skewed by later christian authorities to reinforce this idea of divinity, and something that causes some very odd recorded behaviour from Jesus, how would Jesus actually benefit from asking Judas to betray him? Judas after all is symbolical of betrayal, and the man is said to have committed suicide afterward, a crime in christian eyes. Since this means he couldn't actually be a christian by virtue of his 'abhorrent' actions, he is therefore a jew, and a jew responsible for Jesus's death - something that spawned killings that began in the crusades and reached its zenith in the Holocaust. So it begs the question - is Jesus asking Judas to set him on the road to martyrdom (a desirable christian image) or is he saying - "Judas, you're not one of us are you?". The researcher in this case is using evidence to stress the religious side of the equation but nonetheless the translation is literal. Is there any possibility that we misunderstand the word 'demon' in applying it to a creature of infernal origin, when it might mean 'Person Infected By Evil Intent'? Edited May 25, 2008 by caldrail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephele Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 I'm a little uncomfortable with all this talk of 'demons', which to me seems a little more recent than roman Judaea. Still, these researchers know more than I, so if true, it shows those judaic beliefs in a new light as far as I'm concerned, especially since how little talk there is of demonology in the bible. Apart from the Revelations, the only mention I recall of demons is Jesus's dismissal of tempatation - which has to be an allegorical tale designed to underline Jesus's divinity. Demons were often identified as fallen angels, and one of the Books of Enoch (which I think was written around the second century BCE) provides a list of the names of fallen angels. Additionally, the second century BCE (or perhaps even earilier) apocryphal Book of Tobit not only speaks of demons, but also gives a delicious recipe for the exorcism of a demon-possessed bride: "When you enter the bridal chamber, you shall take live ashes of incense and lay upon them some of the heart and liver of the fish so as to make a smoke. Then the demon will smell it and flee away, and will never again return." -- Nephele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Salve, Amici QUOTE: "Even if you aren't into the religious aspect of this story, it should be a fascinating look in the archaeology and preservation of ancient texts." I completely agree with PP. From what have been posted on this thread, I think no one is actually disputing these papyri are an autheticated document from the III or IV century AD, an amazing fact by itself. I also think most of the publicity (and money) involved in this case comes not from the archeological but from the potential religious aspect of this document (ie, the "good Judas" alternative). Religious stuff is a matter of faith, not science; period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted May 27, 2008 Report Share Posted May 27, 2008 Well... Without being experts ourselves and not having access to the research or researchers, I for one will take the report at face value until I have reason to doubt it. Religion might be a matter of faith, but their paraphenalia left behind can be subject to scientific analysis. Wouldn't want to hoaxed eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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