Philhellene Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades Yet another example of the display of defeatism by western culture. Sure, I suppose its a gesture of reconciliation by why apologize for something that men did centuries ago that nobody living today had anything at all to do with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 If my memory serves, all of the provinces west of Persia and north of Arabia Felix, were Roman and Christian. Maybe the apology should be for not reconquering all of them and offering the same terms to the populations. An apology for the desecration of Sancta Sophia might be in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 Good point. Muslims shuould present apologies for the conquest of christian lands from Jordan to Southern France and Budapest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerfectimusPrime Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Yet another example of the display of defeatism by western culture. Sure, I suppose its a gesture of reconciliation by why apologize for something that men did centuries ago that nobody living today had anything at all to do with. The crusades were nothing but raids with better description. Sure, they had seemingly noble intentions, but every war has noble, yet incredibly selfish intentions. It's hardly "defeatism", it is an attempt to stop glorifing military operations that had religious excuses, but imperial and economical reasons. Good point. Muslims shuould present apologies for the conquest of christian lands from Jordan to Southern France and Budapest! Why not? After all, it would be the greatest thing if people came to together and try to talk. But should we start apologizing about everything, well, there'd be many wars and conflicts between these cultures to start about. Both sides have plenty to apologize, Europeans, after all, conquered the whole middle east and laid waste to the whole world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Laid waste? The world evolved thanks to this european expansion. They brought laws, institutions, infrastructure, tehnology and culture not only pillage and murder. This is the defetism that PP mentioned. Feeling guilty for what should be a pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerfectimusPrime Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Laid waste?The world evolved thanks to this european expansion. They brought laws, institutions, infrastructure, tehnology and culture not only pillage and murder. This is the defetism that PP mentioned. Feeling guilty for what should be a pride. Europeans destroyed entire civilizations, denied peoples their right to their own future. You could say the same about muslims, they conquered Christian lands, but in many cases, they helped to improve civilization, like in northern Africa and holy land. They were still responsible for murder and pillage, but in much less decree than Europeans were. Europeans laid waste to China, India and other civilizations that were incredibly rich in culture and wealthy before the Europeans came. Undoubtetly Europeans brougth laws, institutions and technology, but with a high price. Africa is a hellhole because of European colonization, certainly no proper infrastructure was build by Europeans there, or at least anything that would be worth the civil wars and corruption. China was in a mess, and is partly today. Indian and Incan civilizations are all gone. That's quite a history of bloodshed. Dammit! I have to go, I'll write and answer later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 China failed to improve and payed the price. Japan in a worse situation made it much better. India was a mess troubled by the fall of moghuls when the brits came and create it. Afghans, maratha and other "rich" civilisations were fighting for control razzing towns. Africa was a source for slaves for muslims before the portuguese. And those ones started by selling slaves to the muslims before moving across the ocean. The colonisation is long gone. Africa it's a mess because africans do it like this. Evan Iman agrees. Inca were politically destroyed because it was a loose tribal confederation of bronze age and the inhabitants were killed by diseases spread by europeans in "The Columbus exchenge" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted April 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Europeans destroyed entire civilizations, denied peoples their right to their own future. You`re very naive. You think they never killed and subjugated themselves? And only Europeans are responsible for all sins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germanicus Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Europeans destroyed entire civilizations, denied peoples their right to their own future. You`re very naive. You think they never killed and subjugated themselves? And only Europeans are responsible for all sins? I don't think he's saying that at all, and he's far from naive. He just objected to the egomaniacal view that the conquered are always better off. I feel it has nothing to do with who did the conquering, but at least in hindsight, surely we can agree that terrible and deplorable things came both during, and as a result of Imperialism, the results are still comming to light even now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 I think everybody should apologize then all go back to Africa where we came from! :bag: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Anyone see a number of Christians trotting over to the Middle East about 5 or 6 years ago to apologise in person for the crusades? I saw a brief item televised, the locals (in and around Egypt and Syria if I remember) regarded them with total bafflement and polite indifference. Their main query of the activity was "what do these people actually want?" .Good question. In the Great Spirit of saying sorry organised by Pantagathus let me be the first to apologise for my ancestors leaving Scandinavia, causing a fight in Ireland and founding an irittatingly aggresive state in Normandy.Also I do apologise for the unpleasant blood-eagle stuff :fish: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Anyone see a number of Christians trotting over to the Middle East about 5 or 6 years ago to apologise in person for the crusades? I saw a brief item televised, the locals (in and around Egypt and Syria if I remember) regarded them with total bafflement and polite indifference. Their main query of the activity was "what do these people actually want?" .Good question. In the Great Spirit of saying sorry organised by Pantagathus let me be the first to apologise for my ancestors leaving Scandinavia, causing a fight in Ireland and founding an irittatingly aggresive state in Normandy.Also I do apologise for the unpleasant blood-eagle stuff :fish: Let me turn the tables on everyone and apologize not only for my ancestors who must have done something bad because I am a caucasoid male of European heritage, but also for any potential descendents who will have a high probability of running amok at some point in time and especially in the case of a post-apocalyptic wasteland environment where there are no rules to prevent their errant behavior against fellow humans. [edit] I forgot a smily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlapse Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 but also for any potential descendents who will have a high probability of running amok at some point in time and especially in the case of a post-apocalyptic wasteland environment where there are no rules to prevent their errant behavior against fellow humans. But what if one these post-apocalyptic descendants is Mad Max? Wouldn't you actually be proud of that? I mean, he drove, I mean will drive, a totally tough Javelin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Ah but what if your descendants were some mutated semi-cyborg beings? Surely you must draw the line at apologising for the activities of an AI mutant ? I think this thread has imploded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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