Samnium

[julieboy]

Were the Samnites a Latin people like the Romans?

 

Have read that Samnites gave the Romans all they could handle in battle. However Rome eventually beat them. What made Samnites any tougher to beat for the Romans,than any other people? How did Rome finally beat them?

 

Were Saminites and others in Campania the best gladiators? If so,why is that?

 

Who would be the present day descendents of the Samnites?

[Lacertus]

Were the Samnites a Latin people like the Romans?

Samnites had migrated in the land once occupied by the Opici or Osci and from them, they assimilated the customs and the oscan language. It is believed that they came to the Samnium from the nearby land of the Sabinis from whom they descented. With this suggestion one may conclude that the Samnites got their greek origin from the Spartans as asserted by the historians Strabone, Plutarc and Dionysious of Alicarnassus.

Have read that Samnites gave the Romans all they could handle in battle. However Rome eventually beat them. What made Samnites any tougher to beat for the Romans,than any other people? How did Rome finally beat them?

 

Samnites wars

 

Were Saminites and others in Campania the best gladiators? If so,why is that?

They never were gladiators (maybe, someone was, lol) but "samnites", the heaviest armored gladiators, took their name, costume and weapons from the mighty warriors of Samnium. These warriors would become the model for the standard Roman gladiator.

 

Who would be the present day descendents of the Samnites?

 

The Samnites capital was modern Benevento in the rugged terrain east of Naples. I'm not sure that this nation safed their roots, there are so many events happened in Italy. Most likely Samnites mixed with other Italian people.

Edited March 28, 2006 by Lacertus

[Pantagathus]

Lacertus is correct; every indication is that the Samnites emigrated from Greece at some point unknown before the second half of the 1st Millennium BC. Other than the comments of Strabo we really don't know when they arrived but the first time they show up in written history is when they start harrassing their neighbors in Campania around 440ish BC.

 

The original emigration was probably not a large band of settlers but a small band of conquerors in pursuit of a vow (as we're told by Strabo); hence there assimilation of the conquered people's (Oscans) language as they coalesced into a singular people.

 

I think it's safe to say that by the end of the Roman era, Samnites as a distinct people had all but disappeared through intermarriage and assimilation.

[LEG X EQ]

Samnites (săm'nīts) [key], people of ancient Italy. Their country was Samnium. The Samnites were Oscan-speaking and therefore should be included among the Sabelli. The Tabula Agnonensis, a bronze tablet that carries an inscription engraved in the full Oscan alphabet, is an important record of the language. The loose confederation of agricultural tribes, expanding in the 4th cent. B.C., came into conflict with the Romans over Campania. There was probably a good deal of warfare before the three Samnite Wars (343-341 B.C., c.326-304 B.C., 298-290 B.C.), in which the Romans won control of central and S Italy. Although the Samnites continued to fight against Rome with Pyrrhus, Hannibal and later Marius in the Social War, they were crushed (82 B.C.) by Sulla before the gates of Rome; most of them were killed. Some survivors were sold into slavery(gladiators); the rest were Romanized.

 

Samnium itself was split into 4 districts and 4 tribes Pentri, Caraceni, Caudini and Hirpini.

 

they show up in written history is when they start harrassing their neighbors in Campania around 440ish BC.

Because of the Tabula Agnonensis they can be traced back as far as 300 BC. The story of them being spartans, is more a romantic myth than proven history. Everybody who was a good Warrior tribe claimed or were given origins from Sparta or Troy.

Edited March 28, 2006 by LEG X EQ

[Pantagathus]

Because of the Tabula Agnonensis they can be traced back as far as 300 BC. The story of them being spartans, is more a romantic myth than proven history. Everybody who was a good Warrior tribe claimed or were given origins from Sparta or Troy.

 

Perhaps them being of Spartan origin is fanciful but the breakdown of the root word of their name is enough for modern researchers to accept Greek origins.

 

I'm not following your comment about the Tabula & 300BC. The Samnite Wars even started before then?

[LEG X EQ]

I'm not following your comment about the Tabula & 300BC. The Samnite Wars even started before then?

 

Yes, it was just a statement to state their use of the oscan language and how long it can be traced back for certain.

 

Perhaps them being of Spartan origin is fanciful but the breakdown of the root word of their name is enough for modern researchers to accept Greek origins.

 

Well, the Greeks had a Name for the region(saunitai), long before the Oscii migrated to the south. The Oscan name for the region (Safinim) derrives from the greek name, so does the latin name (samnium).

So to go by that name is clear, that greek roots are found, but if you take the Tribes that made up the samnites (Pentri, Caraceni, Caudini and Hirpini) than no greek roots are found. The Samnites were named after the Region, which name was of Greek origin.

Edited March 28, 2006 by LEG X EQ

[Pantagathus]

Well, the Greeks had a Name for the region(saunitai), long before the Oscii migrated to the south. The Oscan name for the region (Safinim) derrives from the greek name, so does the latin name (samnium).

So to go by that name is clear, that greek roots are found, but if you take the Tribes that made up the samnites (Pentri, Caraceni, Caudini and Hirpini) than no greek roots are found. The Samnites were named after the Region, which name was of Greek origin.

 

Well LEG X EQ,

 

In an attempt to keep this thread from degrading into a pointless argument, all I will say is that using tribal distinctions used both inconsistently and confusingly by later annalists in order to bring closure to the issue of original Samnite origins is misguided.

 

Whoever the original 'Samnites' were, It's clear they became very intertwined with the Oscan tribes of the region in the 200+ years and so by the time info is recorded by the Romans, you're going to have a hard time figuring out where it all falls into place.

 

But why dismiss the anecdotes of the ancients about their origins completely? Why would all the Latins use a word of Greek origin to describe the region & those people if they weren't in some way remotely Greek? (Setting aside the comment about later Oscan migrations into the region...)

Edited March 28, 2006 by Pantagathus

[Andrew Dalby]

Well, the Greeks had a Name for the region(saunitai), long before the Oscii migrated to the south. The Oscan name for the region (Safinim) derrives from the greek name, so does the latin name (samnium).

So to go by that name is clear, that greek roots are found, but if you take the Tribes that made up the samnites (Pentri, Caraceni, Caudini and Hirpini) than no greek roots are found. The Samnites were named after the Region, which name was of Greek origin.

 

The Greek form Saunitai seems to be first attested in the 5th century BC, at which date it was already being said that the land was held by 'Opikoi' (the Greek name for Oscans). However, that's not the same as saying that the word Saunitai/Safinim/Samnium is 'of Greek origin'. It doesn't seem to mean anything in Greek, and it's a bit hard to see how the Oscan and Latin names would derive from the Greek. On the other hand, the Greek form could derive from the Oscan, bearing in mind that Greek had no -f- sound at this time.

[LEG X EQ]

In an attempt to keep this thread from degrading into a pointless argument, all I will say is that using tribal distinctions used both inconsistently and confusingly by later annalists in order to bring closure to the issue of original Samnite origins is misguided.

Whoever the original 'Samnites' were, It's clear they became very intertwined with the Oscan tribes of the region in the 200+ years and so by the time info is recorded by the Romans, you're going to have a hard time figuring out where it all falls into place.

 

@Pantagathus

I never saw this as an argument or as the beginning of one, i just stated several facts about the Samnites which were asked in the original question.

 

You on the other hand have brought up a topic that is based on speculations and theories and myths. If you want to believe they were greek, than do so. But if you want other people to believe in your theory than state some facts. Show some maps of greek settlements within this area prior to the Italic migration or during the italic migration. Or anything else that will prove (somewhat) your theory.

 

In my opinion you are making a mistake as to see the samnites as a whole, instead of various agricultural tribes that are classified within 4 main tribes. You seem to forget about their most sacred ritual the Ver Sacrum which is Italic, their Oscan Deities, their Oscan language, burial rituals, helmets etc.

 

Again, state some facts about a pre greek (spartan) population that was absorbed into the later samnite culture, or in their 4 main cultures.

 

@ Andrew Dalby

The Itai from Saunitai is believd to have the same meaning as the greek Itali. The Greeks called the whole peninsula Itali, with various regions. That Pantagathus is also why the Latins adopted the greek names, just like Etruria.

[Pantagathus]

That Pantagathus is also why the Latins adopted the greek names, just like Etruria.

 

Huh? The Greeks called the Etruscans 'Tyrrhenians' (Turr

[LEG X EQ]

Huh? The Greeks called the Etruscans 'Tyrrhenians' (Turr

Edited March 28, 2006 by LEG X EQ

[Ludovicus]

Here's a large website on Samnium in English and Italian:

 

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/davmonac/sanniti/indexen.html