Roman Wine

[Skarr]

Some years ago, I did some research on the ancient wine drinking habits and uncovered some surprising facts. The Romans were definitely connoisseurs of fine wine and paid as much attention as we do today to the vintage, the source of the wine and of course, its quality.

 

Each amphora, in fact, had their own identification / labeling system and was not only stamped with the year in which the wine was put inside the air tight container but also who made it and which region it was from. Amphorae were stored in special cellars (locked - the key would be given to the head steward and was jealously guarded. Even a wife had no access to the key, only the master) and the wine was stored for years, with special amphorae being opened only on important occasions, much like our behavior today.

 

We have no way, of course, of determining their precise taste but I would imagine that the Romans, given their level of sophistication, would have had wine tasters and other experts who would probably review the quality of various wines and offer recommendations. Of course, the best recommendations would be from the elite consumers, who would probably show off their wine collection during parties and so on.

[Andrew Dalby]

My thanks to PP and Pantagathus for their efforts on behalf of Norman Douglas. Yes, possibly he was thinking about the wine of Thurii ... and possibly, at the moment when he was checking his Pliny, he was distracted by 'a slender lad of unusual comeliness' like the one who had guided him across the heights of Montalto a few days before.

 

On the wines of southern Italy, I have tasted some very good ones. I strongly recommend Aglianico del Vulture (fairly expensive); and red Corvo from Sicily (relatively cheap). Among dessert wines, Moscato of Pantelleria really is 'purest nectar'.

[docoflove1974]

The wine of Cir

Edited March 27, 2006 by docoflove1974

[Gaius Octavius]

I came across an interesting article on wine at "Visions of Rome". It seems that in addition to adding honey to the wine, they cut it with water, 2:1 or 3:1 in favor of water. The Greeks seem to have been a little more generous with the water.

I hope that I didn't get this wrong, but it seems that Falerno was a white wine that when stored for 20 years turned amber. The stuff I had was a 2002 vintage and was red! The original stuff was about 16% alcohol. (How did they find out?)

Seems that the Romans and Greeks preferred their wine 'sweet'.

Mulsum may not have been bilge water.

Try this: (Sorry, I don't know how to get the link in yet.)

 

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encycl...na/sitemap.html

[Andrew Dalby]

If my memory serves me, corked wine is a relatively new phenomenon. Post 1600's? If Roman wine wasn't corked it may have been a drink totally different from what we think of as wine.

 

 

If it is 'corked', one shouldn't drink it!

 

(actually, Octavius, if it is corked, the best thing is to get it uncorked as soon as possible ...)

 

Well, let's say 'sealed with a cork' then. I'm sure Ludovicus is right, but, although the Romans didn't use corks, they did aim to seal their amphoras using a tight-fitting bung, with resin to complete the seal. But the amphora itself would have been somewhat more porous than glass. Others may know better than I do what detailed difference these things would make.

 

Bear in mind that the Romans also used a quite different method, closely resembling the modern bag-in-a-box (but without the box). I mean, of course, the ox-skin or culleus, in which wine was transported in bulk, and the goat-skin in which you could carry a moderate quantity. These, again, would have added their own flavour qualities.

 

The crucial similarity with what we do today is that, in both cases, the Romans were pretty well excluding outside air from the wine, except at the moment of transfer from one storage device to another. If they hadn't done that, it would fairly soon have begun to turn to vinegar, and they were perfectly well able to tell wine from vinegar!

[Gaius Octavius]

Some lad on NPR today mentioned that Romans were the first to farm oysters. And that the denarius had something to do with oysters. (Rats! I missed his point!)

As an aside, he noted that the oyster business and prostitution were the main occupations in New York City at one time.

I wonder if the Romans drank wine or beer with their oysters. How about clams, mussels, snails and urchins? Raw or cooked? Wine or Peroni?

[Pertinax]

Well , speaking locally, at Vindolanda the commander got his Oysters from the North Sea and drank best quality imported Italian wine . This is attested in the Vindolanda tablets. Seafood was a welcome addittion to garisson rations and anything caught was given a try, the very well known "send more beer" tablet tells us what the squaddies were drinking.

AD is the specialist on the foods ,but I know Apicius tells us to have a nice salty sea urchin snack after sweating ourselves clean and pink at the baths. Snails mais certainment-eaten by the discerning since prehistory.If you scroll back a page on the link below-voila..snails in cummin!

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showto...=60entry24962

 

have a look at this poor neglected thread , perhaps you will spot some other delicacy.

 

also: I presume you are familiar with Luc Sante's "Low Life" book

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1...7923368-4219015

 

general debauchery in 19th C New York-makes modern behaviour look dull.

Edited April 9, 2006 by Pertinax

[Andrew Dalby]

Some lad on NPR today mentioned that Romans were the first to farm oysters. And that the denarius had something to do with oysters. (Rats! I missed his point!)

As an aside, he noted that the oyster business and prostitution were the main occupations in New York City at one time.

I wonder if the Romans drank wine or beer with their oysters. How about clams, mussels, snails and urchins? Raw or cooked? Wine or Peroni?

 

The Romans were particularly keen on farming creatures that no one else had thought of. It is generally said that they were the first to farm not only oysters but also several other shellfish, and several fish -- some in artificial ponds, some in fenced-off areas of sea. The same ways it's done now, in fact. Along the coast of Latium and Campania a Roman on holiday could go fishing in some of these fish farms and be guaranteed a catch. Unfair on the fish, I reckon.

 

Also, of course, they farmed dormice and various other small edible animals. Varro, in his book /On Farming/, gives careful instructions. But I believe the Carthaginians might have been the first to farm snails.

 

Whether oyster-farming or prostitution was bigger business in ancient Rome? Now that's an interesting question ...

[Andrew Dalby]

An even more interesting question, to which Pertinax has directed my attention, is: what to drink with them? (I refer now to oysters, not prostitutes, though I believe champagne has been found acceptable in both cases).

 

The curious thing is, I can't think of a single ancient text that says such-and-such a wine must go with such-and-such a food. Surely they must have thought about this question? Somebody else help me, please.

 

Working backwards, heavy, sweet, Greek wines were drunk with dessert. These would have been a bit like some Mediterranean sweet wines of today (though in ancient times they were not fortified with alcohol, they were sweetened with grape syrup and carefully stabilised) -- I will name Malaga, Maury, Banyuls, sweet muscat and malmsey wines, those are the kind of thing. Dark red wines were perhaps not very familiar at all, since no ancient source describes the maceration process that gives wine its red colour. So, with your first course (including the oysters), and also with the main course, you drink whites or very light-coloured reds. There aren't so many of those light reds around now, you have to hunt in Italy or Greece for them

 

Setting that aside, for my next Roman meal I'm serving oysters (raw, that's the way that Caesar served them) with a crisp, not-too-Chardonnay white. The wine has to defer to the oysters, and Chardonnay is seldom deferential enough. I can imagine an Orvieto Classico. Or I shan't mind a Gros Plant du Pays Nantais. But I might have had a glass of Ch

[docoflove1974]

Andrew, your mention of the color of the wines of the time brought a thought to mind.

 

I have spent quite a bit of time in Alicante, Spain (on the Mediterranean, province of Valencia), and there in the summer two wines are preferred (assuming there is no beer around): a ros

[Pertinax]

Hmm , I am a lowly Decurion at heart (Beer -"a corporals drink!")- with oysters I would have to say Adnams Oyster Stout . I dont think my spiritual and gustatory predecessor on the Wall would have been drinking anything radically different, given water quality was excellent and full of magnesium salts, local oats are attested as available, Celtic beer was definitley in demand -though I suspect a touch of heather would have infiltrated.Despite the robust nature of a stout ,oats give a very smooth finish and dont overwhelm the seafood -and fried oysters, yes indeed , king scallops likewise .

 

Oddly enough George Orwell mentions in his days as a plongeur " having a serving girl sitting on his knee eating oysters and beer".(Down and Out in Paris and London).

 

Did Lucullus give any hints on what to drink with the products of his ponds? What should we have with Eel?

 

Banyuls

[Gaius Octavius]

Half a century ago, my fellow debauchees and I would go to Sheepshead Bay (Brooklyn, N.Y.) and eat clams and oysters -raw, without any sauce - (the only way), by the barrel. One didn't have to mortgage the farm for one oyster in those days. It seems that only Italians and my 'educated' Irish friends ate the things then. Like squaddies, we swilled beer by the gallons. Probably Rheingold from a tap. Never tried scallops or mussels raw. Mussels, only at home, were baked and the swill of choice was burgandy or barberone (imported from Kali4kneeya) - half and half with cream soda - and a lemon twist. My father used to bake and pick at the brains of a sheep's head, wine as above. I am sure that it was his Roman blood.

 

Was there a connection between the denarius and oysters?

Edited April 11, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Pantagathus]

So in order to reinject some life into this thread I bought some Sicilian Nero d'Avola last night. I can't remember the winery but it was from the interior of the island. The wine came recommended so I figured why not.

 

It was not bad but not as good as I was hoping. Kind of thin like a mediocre Grenache and a tad rough (that even a bit of breathing did not cure)... I guess it needed a bit more age but it was so thin that I suspect the opposite.

 

Also, I've just learned an interesting tidbit. According to Lionel Casson in Travel in the Ancient World, there was an excavation of Corinth back a few decades ago where they were pulling stuff out of spring wells below a large row of 'drinking shops'.

 

Among the stuff found were many broken and intact libation bowls inscribed with the appropriate deities names as to who was to receive the libation. One was a complete suprise to the excavators as it was hitherto unknown:

 

Pausikraipalos -or- "Stop the Hangover"

 

I'm not kidding!

Edited April 25, 2006 by Pantagathus

[Pertinax]

Corinth was , I believe , known for two quality exports , wine and courtesans ( oh and good architecture but thats a more abstract consumable). So did the Corinthians not know or not have a supply of sorrel herb to mitigate their bibulous excesses?

 

Pantagathus what was the optimun wine skin our noble ancestors favoured? Would any old bladder do the job?

[Pantagathus]

Pantagathus what was the optimun wine skin our noble ancestors favoured? Would any old bladder do the job?

 

I honestly do not know and have not come across any specifics to what leather was used. I will add the other use of the culleus: parricides where sewn up in them and thrown into the Tiber to drown...