Celtic Language Spread & Evolution

[Pantagathus]

I was going to just send Andrew Dalby a PM about this but have decided to post it here for open discussion

[docoflove1974]

One other thing, did the Ligurians speak a form of Leptonic or something completely non-IE? Do we even know?

 

As far as I know (and I can definitely be wrong on this), the language of the Ligurians was indeed a form of Leptonic...but I don't know that we have much of anything in the way of evidence.

 

I'm also curious about this discussion...with Romance and Celtic being closely related in the IE tree, I definitely want to know more!

[Pantagathus]

I'm also curious about this discussion...with Romance and Celtic being closely related in the IE tree, I definitely want to know more!

 

Seen as how this has been met with the sound of crickets so far we way be S.O.L

 

So, your info on Ligurians & Leptonic, where did you hear/learn that? Do you think it was an inference based on population proximity to where it was known to be spoken? (i.e. Alps & along the Po?)

[Andrew Dalby]

I don't know if this will be helpful, Pantagathus ...

 

In my view, whether prehistorians want to identify Celtic with La Tene/Hallstatt is up to them (and they are no doubt right up to a point).

 

Celtic is the name of a language group, within Indo-European. Since that's what Celtic is, it's correct to use the name for any identifiable or reconstructable language that lies, linguistically, somewhere between proto-Indo-European and the modern Celtic languages.

 

La T

[Pantagathus]

I don't know if this will be helpful, Pantagathus ...

 

Well, no pressure Andrew cause that's kind of my horribly misarticulated starting point. But do you basically see what I'm trying to get at though?

 

It's kind of the (big) question of when & how did I-E language permeate these Atlantic zone areas if we accept that it happened before and not after ~7th Century BC.

 

Because then I get into the whole thing of why did the Celtiberians adopt a Mediterranean script by the 5th Century when other 'Celtic' peoples stuck with Ogham? How come Massalia didn't have the same effect in Gaul on Celtic people in regards to the adoption of the Mediterranean writing form as they & other Greeks + Phoenicians had in Spain?

 

Or am I overlooking something?

Edited March 14, 2006 by Pantagathus

[docoflove1974]

So, your info on Ligurians & Leptonic, where did you hear/learn that? Do you think it was an inference based on population proximity to where it was known to be spoken? (i.e. Alps & along the Po?)

 

According to Robert Beekes' Comparative Indo-European Linguistics (1995), Ligurian was probably IE, but is not certain. Venetic is definitely IE, and either considered to be part of the Italic group or on its own...perhaps the same is true for Ligurian.

 

The exact quote of the whole thing (p. 26):

Whether the North Picenian inscriptions and Ligurian (in the vicinity of Genua), which we only know in the forms of names, were in fact Indo-European languages is uncertain. It seems improbable that Rhaetian (spoken from Lake Garda as far as to the Alps) is an Indo-European language, as it appears to contain Etruscan elements. (Rhaetian must not be confused with Rheto-Romance [sometimes called Rhaeto-Romanic], a Romance language spoken in Switzerland.)

 

I know that goes a little more than you originally asked for, but it just gives a bigger picture.

[docoflove1974]

Also, just to post what Beekes says about Celtic:

 

The Celts came from Central Europe, from whence they swarmed out in a number of different directions. For instance, the Galatians of St. Paul's letter who lived in Central Turkey were Celts.

 

a. Continental Celts

On the continent of Europe Celtic became extinct. Gaulish, which was still spoken in France when Caesar was busy with his conquests, is known now from a number of inscriptions. Lepontic, which we know from inscriptions around Lake Maggiore and the other lakes, was a separate Celtic language. In the north of Spain there was Celtiberian. Some time ago a Celtiberian inscription--the most extensive of all Celtic inscriptions--was discovered near Botorrita.

 

b. Insular Celtic

On the islands of western Europe, that is to say, in England and Ireland, Celtic was able to maintain itself. Old Irish is known as of the Ogham inscriptions which date from about 300 A.D., but they have very little information to offer us. By the time that glosses and texts begin to appear in the 7th century, the language was much further developed. The sound changes which Irish underwent are very complex, and the language has for this reason become exceptionally difficult. Irish continued to have a very rich literature. Scots Gaelic is a dialect of Irish (the Irish call themselves Go

[Pantagathus]

So, your info on Ligurians & Leptonic, where did you hear/learn that? Do you think it was an inference based on population proximity to where it was known to be spoken? (i.e. Alps & along the Po?)

 

According to Robert Beekes' Comparative Indo-European Linguistics (1995), Ligurian was probably IE, but is not certain. Venetic is definitely IE, and either considered to be part of the Italic group or on its own...perhaps the same is true for Ligurian.

 

Thanks Docoflove,

 

Take this with a grain of salt... but based on what the ancient geographers said about them, I personally have a sneaking suspicion that their initial language (though many tribes would indeed have been 'Celticized' depending on their location) would have been in the same family as Basque before they were then Romanized in the 2nd Century BC...

[docoflove1974]

Thanks Docoflove,

 

Take this with a grain of salt... but based on what the ancient geographers said about them, I personally have a sneaking suspicion that their initial language (though many tribes would indeed have been 'Celticized' depending on their location) would have been in the same family as Basque before they were then Romanized in the 2nd Century BC...

 

And I can't exactly disagree with you. We have so little of Ligurian and Lepontic, I doubt we'll ever truly know.

 

Dammit, Mr. Peabody...hurry up with that time machine!

[Lacertus]

I hope I'm not very late. I would like to clarify a matter (something )

There is an opinion that the Celts spoke a common Celtic language. Celtic scholars have supposed this common Celtic may have been spoken just before the start of the first millennium BC. during the Urnfield/Hallstatt eras. Soon after, five(?) distinct dialects emerged which may be subdivided as follows:

 

Hispano-Celtic (now obsolete)

Gallic (now obsolete)

Lepontic (now obsolete). Lepontic was a speech-form spoken in Northern Italy around the time of Christ, attested by a handful of short inscriptions in a form of the Etruscan alphabet.

Goidelic or

[Pantagathus]

Thanks for the more indepth background info Lacertus

 

Seems your source also speculates on what proto-Celtic should be defined as and what was spoken over the extent of the Halstatt areas

[Rameses the Great]

Was the Celtic language based on Latin. I know all the languages were based on Latin in Europe, I think even Slavic was, the only group in Europe that did not use it was the ever fascinating Basques. Can anyone please give me an answer?

[docoflove1974]

Was the Celtic language based on Latin. I know all the languages were based on Latin in Europe, I think even Slavic was, the only group in Europe that did not use it was the ever fascinating Basques. Can anyone please give me an answer?

 

Unequivocally not. Proto-Indo-European was the 'mother language' from which derived several of the 'classic' languages--Latin (and the Italic branch), Ancient Greek (and other Hellenic languages), the Balto-Slavic family (Russian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, and many others), the Germanic family (German, English, etc.), the Celtic family (Insular and Continental), Indo-Iranian (Persian/Avestan, Sanskrit/Hindi, etc.), Anatolian/Hittite, and a couple of isolets. Basque and Etruscan, while spoken in areas which were/are surrounded by Indo-European speakers, are not part of this family, and in fact are unrelated to any other language family studied thusfar.

Edited April 4, 2006 by docoflove1974