Incest

[frankq]

Can anyone think offhand of any other cases of incest amongst Roman nobles other than Caligula's bad conduct with his sister?

[Primus Pilus]

Can anyone think offhand of any other cases of incest amongst Roman nobles other than Caligula's bad conduct with his sister?

 

How closely related? There are many instances of cousins and such, but I assume you mean siblings?

[frankq]

Can anyone think offhand of any other cases of incest amongst Roman nobles other than Caligula's bad conduct with his sister?

 

How closely related? There are many instances of cousins and such, but I assume you mean siblings?

 

Oh yeah. First cousins? My God, what a hotbed then of breeding against the genetic strain, both X and Y chromosones.

[Neos Dionysos]

I can't say about nobles, but in Roman Egypt incest, (half brothers and sisters and even full brother/sister), marriages were not only allowed but encouraged, partially to keep property and legacies etc in the family and continual. It was something that they took from the old gods, since in Egyptian mythology incest was a common and accepted thing and the Ptolemies copied this when they attempted to assimulate the cultures and make them look like they were modeling the gods to make them look more legitimate. Every so often you had an outside spouse etc, but a lot of incest occured in the Ptolemaic line, full and half siblings and cousins and I think one case of parent and child. Now, while this is by our standards so bad, it obviously was not detremental since the most famous and perhaps one of the best rulers was Kleopatra VII. Depending on the people who commit the act, incest continually makes the good part in someone's genese even stronger, though at the same time multiplies that bad along with the good... Incest in Roman Egypt continued until the 2nd or 3rd Century AD when it was finally outlawed by Imperial Edict... give me a little time to dig up the exact info if you want.

[frankq]

I can't say about nobles, but in Roman Egypt incest, (half brothers and sisters and even full brother/sister), marriages were not only allowed but encouraged, partially to keep property and legacies etc in the family and continual. It was something that they took from the old gods, since in Egyptian mythology incest was a common and accepted thing and the Ptolemies copied this when they attempted to assimulate the cultures and make them look like they were modeling the gods to make them look more legitimate. Every so often you had an outside spouse etc, but a lot of incest occured in the Ptolemaic line, full and half siblings and cousins and I think one case of parent and child. Now, while this is by our standards so bad, it obviously was not detremental since the most famous and perhaps one of the best rulers was Kleopatra VII. Depending on the people who commit the act, incest continually makes the good part in someone's genese even stronger, though at the same time multiplies that bad along with the good... Incest in Roman Egypt continued until the 2nd or 3rd Century AD when it was finally outlawed by Imperial Edict... give me a little time to dig up the exact info if you want.

 

Cool, and I appreciate, but this concerns more directly happenings at home in Rome. I can't think of any other circumstances aside from Caligula...

[Primus Pilus]

One prominent example would be Marcus Aurelius who was married to his first cousin Faustina the younger (his aunt was the wife of Antoninus Pius). Marcus and Faustina had at least 13 children including of course, the megalomaniac Commodus.

 

I put this link in another recent thread, but it applies here too. This Imperial Stemmata page shows the family relationships of the major Roman dynasties. Despite the 'adoptive succession' period of the Antonines or the '5 Good Emperors', there is still a considerable degree of nepotism.

[Neos Dionysos]

One prominent example would be Marcus Aurelius who was married to his first cousin Faustina the younger (his aunt was the wife of Antoninus Pius). Marcus and Faustina had at least 13 children including of course, the megalomaniac Commodus.

 

Well she was also a great fan of gladiators... and it is said Commodus was actually the result of her affair with one... it would explain Commondus' crazed interest and need to be a gladiator and fight...

[caldrail]

Commodus wanted to be gladiator to wow the crowd, make himself popular, and boost his own ego. As to whether Faustina really did get laid with a gladiator.... probably. She was promiscuous, but we'll never really know.

 

Be careful about charges of incest. If you had a political rival, one sure way to crush his career was accuse him of scandalous activity, and if you were seen kissing your sister... oh dear.... In truth it might have been harmless and an ordinary expression of sibling closeness, but once your enemy noted it and had witnesses see it too the 'truth' will out.

 

As to whether Caligula actually did it with his sister, I'm not sure. It seems unlikely yet his closeness to Druscilla was a little over the top. At the end of the day its the victors who write history, so Suetonius and Tacitus etc simply recorded what the witnesses had told them. They may have been mistaken or lying out of their backsides. They may also have been telling the truth as they saw it - again - we'll never actually know.

 

In reality, I would expect incest to be as common as it is in our day.

Edited February 26, 2006 by caldrail

[Primus Pilus]

Just some additional examples... Claudius found incest so nice... he tried it twice.

 

Claudius was the son of Nero Drusus and Antonia Minor (Daughter of Marcus Antonius). His second wife was Messalina who was the grandaughter of his mother's sister (daughter of Antonia Major and Domitius Ahenobarbus). Does that make them second cousins, or first cousins once removed? (this has always confused me).

 

Finding out that being married to a cousin wasn't such a wise idea, Claudius figured he would bring the family closer together and chose to marry Agrippina the younger. She was the daughter of Germanicus (Claudius' brother) and Agrippina the Elder which made her Claudius' niece. My memory is failing me here, but I do recall that she was also a suspected play thing of her brother Gaius (Caligula).

 

Talk about keeping it in all the family.

[Andrew Dalby]

Be careful about charges of incest. If you had a political rival, one sure way to crush his career was accuse him of scandalous activity, and if you were seen kissing your sister... oh dear.... In truth it might have been harmless and an ordinary expression of sibling closeness, but once your enemy noted it and had witnesses see it too the 'truth' will out.

 

As to whether Caligula actually did it with his sister, I'm not sure. It seems unlikely yet his closeness to Druscilla was a little over the top. At the end of the day its the victors who write history, so Suetonius and Tacitus etc simply recorded what the witnesses had told them. They may have been mistaken or lying out of their backsides. They may also have been telling the truth as they saw it - again - we'll never actually know.

 

In reality, I would expect incest to be as common as it is in our day.

 

Yes, these are good points. 1. In Britain nowadays (maybe the US too?) accusations of sexual nonconformism are the easy way to kill a politician's career and give everyone else a laugh. Maybe in early imperial Rome too. 2. We don't know -- even Suetonius didn't know -- what Caligula and Drusilla did, if anything, when the lights were out.

 

Note this joke among Roman students of law: 'You can do half of it in Athens, all of it in Alexandria;' i.e., according to provincial law you can marry your half-sister in Athens, you can marry your full sister in Alexandria.

[caldrail]

Just some additional examples... Claudius found incest so nice... he tried it twice.

 

Claudius was the son of Nero Drusus and Antonia Minor (Daughter of Marcus Antonius). His second wife was Messalina who was the grandaughter of his mother's sister (daughter of Antonia Major and Domitius Ahenobarbus). Does that make them second cousins, or first cousins once removed? (this has always confused me).

 

Finding out that being married to a cousin wasn't such a wise idea, Claudius figured he would bring the family closer together and chose to marry Agrippina the younger. She was the daughter of Germanicus (Claudius' brother) and Agrippina the Elder which made her Claudius' niece. My memory is failing me here, but I do recall that she was also a suspected play thing of her brother Gaius (Caligula).

 

Talk about keeping it in all the family.

 

Oops. Messalina was his third wife. The first was Urginanilla (did I spell it right?), the second was Aelia Paetina - a close relative of Sejanus. Yes you're right though, Claudius did technically commit incest .

[Primus Pilus]

Just some additional examples... Claudius found incest so nice... he tried it twice.

 

Claudius was the son of Nero Drusus and Antonia Minor (Daughter of Marcus Antonius). His second wife was Messalina who was the grandaughter of his mother's sister (daughter of Antonia Major and Domitius Ahenobarbus). Does that make them second cousins, or first cousins once removed? (this has always confused me).

 

Finding out that being married to a cousin wasn't such a wise idea, Claudius figured he would bring the family closer together and chose to marry Agrippina the younger. She was the daughter of Germanicus (Claudius' brother) and Agrippina the Elder which made her Claudius' niece. My memory is failing me here, but I do recall that she was also a suspected play thing of her brother Gaius (Caligula).

 

Talk about keeping it in all the family.

 

Oops. Messalina was his third wife. The first was Urginanilla (did I spell it right?), the second was Aelia Paetina - a close relative of Sejanus. Yes you're right though, Claudius did technically commit incest .

 

Oh egads, I didn't forget Plautia Urgulanilla but rather Aelia Paetina. I mean at least Urgulanilla was smart enough to commit adultery and get herself a divorce, but poor old Aelia was just a good little lass that got married in order to satisfy the political machinations of Sejanus to tie his family in with the Julio-Claudians. He had all the fun while she had to deal with stuttering and drooling Claudius even before he got all the imperial power.

[Neos Dionysos]

As to whether Caligula actually did it with his sister, I'm not sure. It seems unlikely yet his closeness to Druscilla was a little over the top. At the end of the day its the victors who write history, so Suetonius and Tacitus etc simply recorded what the witnesses had told them. They may have been mistaken or lying out of their backsides. They may also have been telling the truth as they saw it - again - we'll never actually know.

 

I think he did have physical relations with his sister, though this more due to the fact that growing up he was not close to anyone except her and they were all they had and so it kinda developed... one could blame Tiberius and all of his actions against Caligula and his family by his uncle that caused this and helped shape Caligula into a candidate for a future monster once in power.

[Favonius Cornelius]

Note this joke among Roman students of law: 'You can do half of it in Athens, all of it in Alexandria;' i.e., according to provincial law you can marry your half-sister in Athens, you can marry your full sister in Alexandria.

 

LOL! Where is it quoted?

[Andrew Dalby]

Note this joke among Roman students of law: 'You can do half of it in Athens, all of it in Alexandria;' i.e., according to provincial law you can marry your half-sister in Athens, you can marry your full sister in Alexandria.

 

LOL! Where is it quoted?

I was afraid you'd ask that, Favonius. I swear to the accuracy of it, but I haven't got the reference handy. My search starts now. Someone may soon want to use the original words in a tattoo (but I hope not)