David Irving Jailed For 3 Years

[roman wargamer]

in where i was born and grow....with my muslim friends...i could blasphemy Muhammad....

they will not hurt me...on the same day...but our frienship will be ruin forever... they will let me go home...and they no longer help or protect me on next time... if i do it again from other muslim.

 

...a few months ago... my wife uncle shoot in the head a mayor's bodyguard...

simply because he's taunting the man ( in public feast ) he can not fire the gun he bring,

saying it repatedly ... that humilates a man as cowards. He fire it to prove he is not coward.

 

it is a place ( just south of manila, my mother's hometown ) were family feuds rivalry

could run for generations.

 

if you break a law, customs and tradition, even if you know it... you have to face the consequences.

[Primus Pilus]

*I would never say that though and just used it as an example, as i respect humans way too much, regardless of their color, faith or nationality...

 

Egads, well you just did though... but that's exactly the sort of point I was trying to make. Every nation and culture has laws based upon their own experiences and circumstances. We might think, yes but why would Austrians say that word in normal context, because it simply doesn't apply to their culture? Well generally I'm sure such terms aren't really a part of their language, but there is also no repurcussion legally for using such terms, whether it be right or wrong in a moral context. The USA has plenty of restrictions, racial slurs included, on our so called freedom of speech because of our own historic circumstances, just as every other democratic nation does. Democracy isn't necessarily developed around the concepts of freedom to say what pleases you, but simply to allow representative government. 'Democracy' comes in many forms and freedoms as well. The constitution of the United States and the first amendment guaranteeing our freedom of speech and expression is not the same document that dictates the democratic principals of all nations.

 

The strange thing to me is that we rarely see westerners run to China, Iran or North Korea to shout from the mountaintops about 'freedom' but we often see people begrudging the relatively minor restrictions that we face in western society. I suppose thats the beautiful thing about being free.

[Pertinax]

Ill try and keep it simple-

1.Irving persisted in saying daft things but ive never met anyone who considers him to be an "influential historian"

2. Europe has an anti-semitic problem , but the Liberal status quo dont seem keen on tackling that originating from Islamisist sources.

3. punish Irving by all means for being stupid but ensure you mete out justice to anyone regardless of race and religion.-That was the idea of justice in the first place wasnt it?

 

I fear liberal relatavism again

 

 

note on British Teeth:

my teeth are notably regular and well maintained (Virgil please note) ,thus marking me as irredeemably middle class. Were I a toff or an oik they would be irregular and green (and partly absent).

Edited February 21, 2006 by Pertinax

[P.Clodius]

Anti-semitism--if what Goldhagen and a few other historians have stated are true--was rife in Germany before the Nazis took power.

Anti-semitism is definately a central-east european phenomenon. My ex-wife is an east european jew from (then) Leningrad, she left at the age of 10. She told me the day before they left, the teacher of her older brothers class organized a trip for his class to go to their apartment building where they painted swastica's and slogans like "Good ridence jew", etc....

As for calling Irving stupid, I believe it is a mistake to do so. Controversial yes, stupid no. He knew what he was doing, you live in a country you obey its laws plain and simple. Unfortunately it does appear that there is a double standard and therefore I am against protecting any one group. You protect one, you protect them all, or you protect none. I do care what moderate (majority) muslims think and feel about such things, however, fundementalists (from any denomination) can lick my nutsack! I cannot understand why we keep giving them ammunition to throw back in our faces though.

Edited February 21, 2006 by P.Clodius

[Neos Dionysos]

As much as I am against everything Irving has been pushing in his books over the years, (and I know of university professor just like him at Northwestern University near Chicago but they can't fire him because he has tenure), I am very much in his defense of the right to free speech. Even with the laws already in place, (and yes since he knew them it is his fault), this should be a sign that the very ideals we hold dear like free speech are in danger. It's one thing to disagree with someone, and a whole other to jail them for disagreeing.

[tflex]

I do care what moderate (majority) muslims think and feel about such things...

 

I respectfully disagree with that statement. I come orginally from Lebanon, I lived there for 10 years, I've been to Egypt, Jordan, Qatar, UAE and Pakistan. I'm a christian by religion but an arab by ethnicity, I know the culture well growing up around muslims and especially during a civil war. One thing I noticed in my country and the other countries I visited, there is a clear majority that are absolutely fundamentalist and a moderate minority. From my experience I would estimate it to be 65% hardliners and 35% moderate. In terms of their hatred towards jews, I would say 85% despise them and 15% accept them. These are my own rough estimates but I do think a westerner's experience may be different than mine. Usually, what typically happens in an interaction, your average muslim citizen might give the impression he is open minded to the westerner just to impress him, but when the westerner turns his back, that same muslim will go to his friends and curse the hell out of him and his country. I've personally witnessed this on many occasions.

 

I think people make a serious mistake when they try to be politically correct about the numbers of fanatics, it hides the real problem, which is not that the minority is supporting terror but rather the majority wants it to happen, and thats exactly why the terrorists keep increasing in numbers. They have a majority supporting them.

 

A lot of the moderates emigrate to the west, thats why most muslims living in the west are open minded.

[Neos Dionysos]

I respectfully disagree with that statement. I come orginally from Lebanon, I lived there for 10 years, I've been to Egypt, Jordan, Qatar, UAE and Pakistan. I'm a christian by religion but an arab by ethnicity, I know the culture well growing up around muslims and especially during a civil war. One thing I noticed in my country and the other countries I visited, there is a clear majority that are absolutely fundamentalist and a moderate minority. From my experience I would estimate it to be 65% hardliners and 35% moderate. In terms of their hatred towards jews, I would say 85% despise them and 15% accept them. These are my own rough estimates but I do think a westerner's experience may be different than mine. Usually, what typically happens in an interaction, your average muslim citizen might give the impression he is open minded to the westerner just to impress him, but when the westerner turns his back, that same muslim will go to his friends and curse the hell out of him and his country. I've personally witnessed this on many occasions.

 

I think people make a serious mistake when they try to be politically correct about the numbers of fanatics, it hides the real problem, which is not that the minority is supporting terror but rather the majority wants it to happen, and thats exactly why the terrorists keep increasing in numbers. They have a majority supporting them.

 

A lot of the moderates emigrate to the west, thats why most muslims living in the west are open minded.

 

If what you say is true then... this opens up a whole new set of problems and issues concerning the peaceful relations with muslim nations as a whole and I shudder to think of what some western governments supplied with this information, (if completely correct), would do to 'solve' the issues.

[Princeps]

Maybe I'm in a reviling mood tonight, I just spent two days going toe-to-to with some Brit soldiers on another site attacking the U.S. Army's performance in Iraq that ended up with accusations of gun-toting 'merican nuts, slavery, inbred Southerners and counter-accusations of poor dental hygiene, English slavers and Boer concentration camps.

 

You have my sympathy. Arguing with European anti-Americans makes me see red--to have to deal with stupid American provincialism simultaneously would leave me in the mood to jail everyone! (I am assuming you weren't the one hauling up the old 'poor dental hygiene' argument, right Virgil? Please!? )

 

I have to admit I did, but I think I added a decent enough twist. While making fun of Americans and their poor skills at geography one asked me where the state of East Virginia was (he claimed to have stumped an American soldier once with that question).

 

I answered it was right next to the UK School of Dentistry.

 

 

 

Edit: Apologies to Pertinax, Princeps, Andrew Darby and the rest of the UK contingent who I hold in high regard (and who's dental hygiene is I am sure immaculate) but one has to defend one's country.

 

Hey, no worries. It's all true anyway, I had all my teeth replaced with wooden facimilies when I was 16, 'cos I knew they'd be rotten within 5 years anyway Seriously though, I personally think that view comes from the fact that braces (retainers) are generally seen as cosmetic alterations over here, unless your teeth are really screwed up. It's not like were genetically pre-disposed to having monsterous gnashers, it's just were not big fans of dental modifications, despite the fact that there is a social dental programme (supposedly - it's not going to last for much longer imo).

 

Also, next time a Europen asks how many times you've travelled outside the US, just ask how many times they've travelled outside of Europe, it probably won't be many. If they ask you where East Virginia is on the US map, ask them where Croatia is on the map of Europe, they probably won't know.

 

As for the subject at hand, I rather think it is unfair. A custodial sentence - 3 whole years. Some people get less time for taking a life. Fermenting racial hatred is another thing entirely, but I don't think he was convicted of that crime.

 

I respectfully disagree with that statement. I come orginally from Lebanon, I lived there for 10 years, I've been to Egypt, Jordan, Qatar, UAE and Pakistan. I'm a christian by religion but an arab by ethnicity, I know the culture well growing up around muslims and especially during a civil war. One thing I noticed in my country and the other countries I visited, there is a clear majority that are absolutely fundamentalist and a moderate minority. From my experience I would estimate it to be 65% hardliners and 35% moderate. In terms of their hatred towards jews, I would say 85% despise them and 15% accept them. These are my own rough estimates but I do think a westerner's experience may be different than mine. Usually, what typically happens in an interaction, your average muslim citizen might give the impression he is open minded to the westerner just to impress him, but when the westerner turns his back, that same muslim will go to his friends and curse the hell out of him and his country. I've personally witnessed this on many occasions.

 

I think people make a serious mistake when they try to be politically correct about the numbers of fanatics, it hides the real problem, which is not that the minority is supporting terror but rather the majority wants it to happen, and thats exactly why the terrorists keep increasing in numbers. They have a majority supporting them.

 

A lot of the moderates emigrate to the west, thats why most muslims living in the west are open minded.

 

If what you say is true then... this opens up a whole new set of problems and issues concerning the peaceful relations with muslim nations as a whole and I shudder to think of what some western governments supplied with this information, (if completely correct), would do to 'solve' the issues.

 

I wouldn't worry about terrorism too much (in fact I don't) - human civilisation is on it's last legs anyway, the eco-system is about to crumble into dust. It is very likely that global climate change is a far greater danger than terrorism, and is also unavoidable. I read today that the seas are becoming corrosive and won't be able to support much life soon - I don't know if this is entirely true, but I wouldn't be suprised. I think we're all doomed

Edited February 21, 2006 by Princeps

[Neos Dionysos]

I wouldn't worry about terrorism too much (in fact I don't) - human civilisation is on it's last legs anyway, the eco-system is about to crumble into dust. It is very likely that global climate change is a far greater danger than terrorism, and is also unavoidable. I read today that the seas are becoming corrosive and won't be able to support much life soon - I don't know if this is entirely true, but I wouldn't be suprised. I think we're all doomed

 

 

I wasn't talking about Terrorism...

 

...and the eco-system is not that terrible... we've improved from 30-40 years ago... where did you read the seas are not going to support life? Are they scientific studies or things made by places like Greenpeace etc.

[Virgil61]

I do care what moderate (majority) muslims think and feel about such things...

 

I respectfully disagree with that statement. I come orginally from Lebanon, I lived there for 10 years, I've been to Egypt, Jordan, Qatar, UAE and Pakistan. I'm a christian by religion but an arab by ethnicity, I know the culture well growing up around muslims and especially during a civil war. One thing I noticed in my country and the other countries I visited, there is a clear majority that are absolutely fundamentalist and a moderate minority. From my experience I would estimate it to be 65% hardliners and 35% moderate. In terms of their hatred towards jews, I would say 85% despise them and 15% accept them. These are my own rough estimates but I do think a westerner's experience may be different than mine. Usually, what typically happens in an interaction, your average muslim citizen might give the impression he is open minded to the westerner just to impress him, but when the westerner turns his back, that same muslim will go to his friends and curse the hell out of him and his country. I've personally witnessed this on many occasions.

 

I think people make a serious mistake when they try to be politically correct about the numbers of fanatics, it hides the real problem, which is not that the minority is supporting terror but rather the majority wants it to happen, and thats exactly why the terrorists keep increasing in numbers. They have a majority supporting them.

 

A lot of the moderates emigrate to the west, thats why most muslims living in the west are open minded.

 

I've spent quite some time in the ME myself; Egypt, Saudi, Bahrain, Kuwait and Iraq.

 

I hesitated to go down this road, but your experience there reflects mine. I'm not convinced of moderation's hold on a large part of the Arab Islamic population.

[tflex]

If what you say is true then... this opens up a whole new set of problems and issues concerning the peaceful relations with muslim nations as a whole and I shudder to think of what some western governments supplied with this information, (if completely correct), would do to 'solve' the issues.

 

I'm pretty sure western governments know exactly the scope of the problem but they try to be politically correct about it in public. I'm sure the CIA, MI6 etc. are well aware of the widespread muslim fundamentalism.

 

I think the best way to deal with it in the short term, is what Bush is trying to do now, take the war to them. Fundamentalists understand only one language and thats force. On the other hand you can't change peoples beliefs, young muslims are taught at a very young age that jews are the seed of the devil and christians are infidels. I'll give you a good example of how deep their hatred is, I live in Los Angeles, a few years back I had to go the Lebanese consulate in downtown LA to renew my passport. When I walked through the consulate door, I immediately noticed a huge map of Lebanon hung on the wall. The map showed the bordering countries, Syria and Palestine but Israel was noticably absent from the map, they just replaced it with Palestine and refuse to acknowledge it's existance. I sat down and next to me there was a middle aged man in his late 30's, I noticed he was staring at the map too, when he saw me sit next to him, he turned to me and told me with a smile in arabic, "In a few years Palestine will liberate it's land and Israel will have it's own land in the middle of the meditarranean sea and hopefully they will all drown there and that'll be the end of them" Whats worse is he was holding in his hand a U.S. passport, a natuaralized citizen. And, I'm talking about a consulate in Los Angeles not Saudi Arabia.

 

I've spent quite some time in the ME myself; Egypt, Saudi, Bahrain, Kuwait and Iraq.

 

I hesitated to go down this road, but your experience there reflects mine. I'm not convinced of moderation's hold on a large part of the Arab Islamic population.

 

Bahrain and Kuwait, you would assume they are moderate and pro-American, but infact they are anti-American especially the younger generation.

Edited February 21, 2006 by tflex

[Virgil61]

...

Bahrain and Kuwait, you would assume they are moderate and pro-American, but infact they are anti-American especially the younger generation.

 

To be fair, the Kuwaitis are the only ones who gave Americans a thumbs up as they drive by or stop and talk with us. I've found that those who've gone to school in the US, quite a few of them really, are still very pro-American.

 

The plight of Arab Christians, especially in Egypt and Iraq, is pretty sad. We were in civilian clothes in Cairo and were accosted by a group of friendly young Egyptian girls. It turned out they were Christian and had the Coptic cross tatooed between their thumb and forefinger so as to identify them if they were kidnapped by muslims while children. Pretty harsh.

[Sextus Roscius]

Agreed Virgil, Arab Christians have it incredibly hard.

 

As a comment to get back to the Topic here, I think it is sort of conflicting here that (as pointed out by another on page 1) that the most anti-Nazi & anti-Facist idea is individual liberty, which the Austrians are taking away by prohibiting a person to think what he wants.

 

Also, I would like to point out that American Anti-racism laws are higly different from Austria anti-Halocaust denial laws. It is one thing to hate black people for there race, and an entirely different peice of cake to deny history happened. Irving's statements are like some one denying that Japanese americans were put into camps durring WWII and that there was no racial hatred towards them.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Just to be clear--there are no American laws prohibiting racism, racist language, or racist writings. Social ostracism, of course, will be swift, and many employers (who are at liberty to fire anyone they wish at any time) would be likely to remove racists from their businesses, but unless racist language is accompanied by the use of physical force or the threat of it, it's legal. What Irving did would be legal in the US.

 

Virgil can correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think it's important that we're clear about what is and is not legal.

[Virgil61]

Just to be clear--there are no American laws prohibiting racism, racist language, or racist writings. Social ostracism, of course, will be swift, and many employers (who are at liberty to fire anyone they wish at any time) would be likely to remove racists from their businesses, but unless racist language is accompanied by the use of physical force or the threat of it, it's legal. What Irving did would be legal in the US.

 

Virgil can correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think it's important that we're clear about what is and is not legal.

 

Good catch. It crossed my mind to post something similar earlier. Government attempts at regulating hate speech are very carefully scrutinized by the courts and difficult to implement. Generally, as you've said, as long as you aren't advocating actual violence or intimidation you're untouchable by law enforcement and the court system.