Pasta

[Germanicus]

In a book I'm reading, it mentions Pasta found at Pompei, and suggests that in some instances soldiers would have turned their grain ration into Pasta. Was this when pasta first appears ? Are it's origins Roman ? I confess that for some reason I have for a long time thought it came from China, noodles perhaps.

[Pertinax]

Andrew Dalby will surely be the man to tell us ! I was interested to see that in the Osprey title I recently mentioned in the "colosseum" section, "Roman Auxiliary Cavalryman" (Nic Fields) runs through the alternatives for use of field rations (the quote relates to Caracalla via Herodian) "eating whatever bread was available locally.With his own hand he would grind his personal ration of grain ..." alternativley the ground meal could be boiled with water to make porridge ( gruel I suggest) or turned into pasta.

 

what is the book with the Pompeii reference please? Is it the "Natural History?" by Jashemski?

Edited February 19, 2006 by Pertinax

[Germanicus]

what is the book with the Pompeii reference please? Is it the "Natural History?" by Jashemski?

 

I should have said..it's "The Complete Roman Army" by Adrian Goldsworthy, page 98.

 

He also says that the hard tack they sometimes received wasn't usually eaten as such, but was ground to make a crude flour and baked into bread.

 

I guess the early pasta mentioned could have been like a dumpling, pasta for-runner?

 

Andrew ? Oh Andrew.......

[Pertinax]

Germanicus does this book make any reference to the use of dried pollen cakes as a marching food?

[Germanicus]

No, no mention of dried pollen cakes I'm afraid, there are a couple of other things I was suprised by though, namely that the Italians loved pork and bacon, and that as the Italian contingent in the Army dropped, so the finds of bones at fort sites include much more cattle, sheep and goat bones, than the pig bones that used to be predominant.

[Pertinax]

Thats exactly the information in the "Auxiliary Cavalryman " book -the finds being from the Antonine and Hadrianic Wall fortlets.A lot of Roe Deer as well around Vindolanda, bacon is mentioned as a ration standard.Its worth repeating that the nutritional quality of the grains used was much higher than contemporary grainstuffs.

 

Hunting was considered the ideal "leisure" training for the Auxiliae and must have provided a considerable amount of useful meat-the Vindolanda bone analysis (and sewage analysis from the Antonine sites) shows a basic high quality mixed veg and grain diet (with imported "exotics" ) admixed with a wide range of flesh .

Edited February 19, 2006 by Pertinax

[Ursus]

In a book I'm reading, it mentions Pasta found at Pompei, and suggests that in some instances soldiers would have turned their grain ration into Pasta. Was this when pasta first appears ? Are it's origins Roman ? I confess that for some reason I have for a long time thought it came from China, noodles perhaps.

 

The Chinese had noodles, but Europeans invented pasta independently. I believe the Etruscans may have invented it and passed it on to the Romans, but I can't remember the source which spells this out...

 

shows a basic high quality mixed veg and grain diet (with imported "exotics" ) admixed with a wide range of flesh .

 

 

What, no fruit?

[Andrew Dalby]

In a book I'm reading, it mentions Pasta found at Pompei, and suggests that in some instances soldiers would have turned their grain ration into Pasta. Was this when pasta first appears ? Are it's origins Roman ? I confess that for some reason I have for a long time thought it came from China, noodles perhaps.

 

The Chinese had noodles, but Europeans invented pasta independently. I believe the Etruscans may have invented it and passed it on to the Romans, but I can't remember the source which spells this out...

 

 

See, you can manage perfectly well without me!

 

As it happens, people in one of the language threads are considering right now whether there was originally a single human language or whether language originated more than once. However it may be with language, it was almost certainly the case with pasta -- invented in China and the Mediterranean region independently, as Ursus says.

 

What's more difficult is, a. what was the name for ancient pasta and, b. why it occurs so little in ancient texts, when these days you could hardly spend a day in Italy without mentioning pasta. a. Here are some names: itria (maybe like vermicelli), laganum (maybe like lasagne), collyra (maybe like maccheroni). b. I don't know the answer to b,: presumably, for whatever reason, it failed to become a dietary staple. The sources suggest its use in sweet more than in savoury dishes. In spite of what writers quoted above may say, I don't think there's any evidence that soldiers ate a lot of it, and I would doubt strongly whether soldiers had the time and inclination to make it themselves (NB without a pasta machine!)

Edited February 19, 2006 by Andrew Dalby

[Pertinax]

several small points-

interesting that we have more simultaneous discovery as the "invention" of fermentation also seems to be independent but contemperaneous in many areas across the globe .Buhner cites simultaneous fermentation evidence for every continent save Australasia.

good point about fruit -a wide range:(my omission) apples ,pears ,damsons,apricots, figs and pomegranates also olives and a range of nuts.Looks lke a very anti-oxidant rich diet , add to that the fish (which I also forgot) which appears locally in abundance if connected to a local source and I suspect no Troopers had "attention deficit disorder" from eating trash.A very wide range of products,some from remote localities-doesnt look like these men went too short of rations in garrison at least.ADs point about making pasta struck me -perhaps you only have time and leisure to do so in a garrison? Hadrian was keen on garisson troops being kept up to speed as we know-perhaps a diet of pasta and celtic gruit was debilitating the patrols

Edited February 19, 2006 by Pertinax

[Virgil61]

...

 

In spite of what writers quoted above may say, I don't think there's any evidence that soldiers ate a lot of it, and I would doubt strongly whether soldiers had the time and inclination to make it themselves (NB without a pasta machine!)

 

You have a point. Certainly while not in garrison and on the move pasta wouldn't be a choice. In garrison if they had time on their hands it might be a bit of a different story.

 

Speaking as one who's spent hours helping his Abruzzese mother prepare homemade pasta.

 

No, no mention of dried pollen cakes I'm afraid, there are a couple of other things I was suprised by though, namely that the Italians loved pork and bacon, and that as the Italian contingent in the Army dropped, so the finds of bones at fort sites include much more cattle, sheep and goat bones, than the pig bones that used to be predominant.

 

Interesting. One common (and excellent) contemporary Italian pork product called proscuitto is heavily salted and preserves easily. There are several others. I wonder this or a forerunner made up part of an Italian soldier's diet.

[Andrew Dalby]

No, no mention of dried pollen cakes I'm afraid, there are a couple of other things I was suprised by though, namely that the Italians loved pork and bacon, and that as the Italian contingent in the Army dropped, so the finds of bones at fort sites include much more cattle, sheep and goat bones, than the pig bones that used to be predominant.

 

Interesting. One common (and excellent) contemporary Italian pork product called proscuitto is heavily salted and preserves easily. There are several others. I wonder this or a forerunner made up part of an Italian soldier's diet.

 

Yes, surely. For one way with pork, see Cato's instructions for salting it

 

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dalby/texts/CatoTranslation.html

 

 

 

 

several small points-

interesting that we have more simultaneous discovery as the "invention" of fermentation also seems to be independent but contemperaneous in many areas across the globe .Buhner cites simultaneous fermentation evidence for every continent save Australasia.

 

I have a feeling that fermentation invents itself, like yogurt, but perhaps unlike pasta. My own experience: having made apple juice from my French orchard, and taking it back home to England (when we still lived there) in a plastic bottle, and opening the bottle after several hours en route for a picnic, and getting a highly drinkable faceful of sparkling cider. I have profited by this reinvention of fermentation and now make cider all the time ...

Maybe the Olympians will move this into the beer thread?

[Pertinax]

My use of speech marks was indeed semi ironic-yeasts will invent alcohol given half a chance whatever the circumstances. I suppose the comment was really to drive home the "non culture specific " nature of getting a skinful (is my British slang translatable?). Please tell us about the cider in Hora Postiliae!

 

ps: fermentation often starts accidentally but in some areas of the world where the base starch is very difficult to break down ,the use of saliva to start a "pre-digestion" sequence was needed to initiate the fermentation cycle. So-bite size "rissoles" of the appropriate plant/root would be masticated till mushy then left outside to dry to be used as the basis for a fermented product.

 

and I think this has drifted beerwards again!

Edited February 20, 2006 by Pertinax