Suicide

[Lost_Warrior]

I picked this topic up from "Pretorian Guard" as it seemed interesting

 

How did Romans view suicide? I know it was not seen as "taboo" as it is today, but rather a way to preserve honor, however were there social restrictions on it?

 

I remember reading in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar (not a historical reference lol but it got me thinking) that Portia commited suicide by eating hot coals. I thought this was rediculous, but then I thought "would they really do it that way?" I mean, was it considered a greater honor to end one's own life painfully rather than to quietly bleed to death?

[Pertinax]

Suicide was honourable , especially in a military context-its an overworked analogy -but in relation to Samurai honour codes, to take one's own life rather than succumb to an enemy( in "unprofitable" circumstances) was irreproachable , this is in the context of a martial engagement where surrendur would be a possibility -the Jewish revolt is a very good example , I cannot remember the specified incident but there is a very notable example of a a public suicide of a valarous Roman soldier seen by Jewish and Roman combatants alike ( I will search it out). This was esteemed a most proper and appropriate action.

Personally I wish to say this seems not inappropriate-a clean death buy one's own hand as a gesture of defiance? How morally frustrating to an enemy.

[Sextus Roscius]

Suicide was seen by the Romans good or bad depending on the context.

 

In some terms, if a child was in some way making a bad image for the rest of his family, or had dishonored his family by commiting a crime or something etc. It was seen as honorable for that person to commit suicide and the Romans would admire how he had put his family before his own life. Also it was viewed in good context in military terms. The Romans considered Death before surrender to be very, very honorable and note worthy. After all, you fought for Rome through and threw, and would rather die by your own blade than by the blade of an enemy.

 

In the bad context, it would be horrible for some one in debt to commit suicide, becuase that would leave his family in quite the situation, and probley if worse came to pass, his wife might have to become a slave to compensate. Also, in the negative context, would be if persay, a comander was to kill himself and leave his men divided. That would be an ultimate of cowerdlyness and dishonor

[Primus Pilus]

Suicide was not just an acceptable way to avoid dishonor from criminal prosecution or defeat in battle, but in the case of Cato it was also the ultimate political statement...

 

Cato's suicide in the face of Caesar's victory at Thapsus according to Cassius Dio...

Cato, since many had sought refuge with him, was at first preparing to take a hand in affairs and to resist Caesar as best he might. But the people of Utica had not been hostile to Caesar in the first place, and now, seeing him victorious, would not listen to Cato; and the members of the senate and the knights who were present were afraid of being arrested by them, and so meditated flight. Cato himself, therefore, decided neither to war against Caesar, being unable to do so anyhow, nor yet to go over to his side. This was not because of any fear, since he understood well enough that Caesar would be very eager to spare him for the sake of his reputation for humanity; but it was because he passionately loved freedom, and would not brook defeat at the hands of anybody, and regarded Caesar's pity as far more hateful than death. So he called together the citizens who were present, enquired where each one of them was intending to go, sent them forth with supplies for their journey, and bade his son go to Caesar. To the youth's inquiry, "Why, then, do you also not do so?" 5he replied: "I, who have been brought up in freedom, with the right of free speech, cannot in my old age change and learn slavery instead; but for you, who were both born and brought up amid such a condition, it is proper to serve the divinity that presides over your fortunes."

 

And a more dramatic version according to Plutarch...

Thus the supper came to an end, and after walking about with his friends as he usually did after supper, he gave the officers of the watch the proper orders, and then retired to his chamber, but not until he had embraced his son and each of his friends with more than his wonted kindness, and thus awakened anew their suspicions of what was to come. After entering his chamber and lying down, he took up Plato's dialogue "On the Soul," and when he had gone through the greater part of the treatise, he looked up above his head, and not seeing his sword hanging there (for his son had taken it away while Cato was still at supper), called a servant and asked him who had taken the weapon. The servant made no answer, and Cato returned to his book; and a little while after, as if in no haste or hurry, but merely looking for his sword, he bade the servant fetch it. But as there was some delay, and no one brought the weapon, he finished reading his book, and this time called his servants one by one and in louder tones demanded his sword. One of them he smote on the mouth with his fist, and bruised his own hand, angrily crying now in loud tones that his son and his servants were betraying him into the hands of the enemy without arms. At last his son ran in weeping, together with his friends, and after embracing him, betook himself to lamentations and entreaties. But Cato, rising to his feet, took on a solemn look, and said: "When and where, without my knowledge, have I been adjudged a madman, that no one instructs or tries to convert me in matters wherein I am thought to have made bad decisions, but I am prevented from using my own judgement, and have my arms taken from me? Why, generous boy, dost thou not also tie thy father's hands behind his back, that Caesar may find me unable to defend myself when he comes? Surely, to kill myself I have no need of a sword, when I have only to hold my breath a little while, or dash my head against the wall, and death will come."

 

As Cato said these words the young man went out sobbing, and all the rest also, except Demetrius and Apollonides. These alone remained, and with these Cato began to talk, now in gentler tones. "I suppose," said he, "that ye also have decided to detain in life by force a man as old as I am, and to sit by him in silence and keep watch of him: or are ye come with the plea that it is neither shameful nor dreadful for Cato, when he has no other way of salvation, to await salvation at the hands of his enemy? Why, then, do ye not speak persuasively and convert me to this doctrine, that we may cast away those good old opinions and arguments which have been part of our very lives, be made wiser through Caesar's efforts, and therefore be more grateful to him? And yet I, certainly, have come to no resolve about myself; but when I have come to a resolve, I must be master of the course which I decide to take. And I shall come to a resolve with your aid, as I might say, since I shall reach it with the aid of those doctrines which ye also adopt as philosophers. So go away with good courage, and bid my son not to try force with his father when he cannot persuade him."

 

Without making any reply to this, but bursting into tears, Demetrius and Apollonides slowly withdrew. Then the sword was sent in, carried by a little child, and Cato took it, drew it from his sheath, and examined it. And when he saw that its point was keen and its edge still sharp, he said: "Now I am my own master." Then he laid down the sword and resumed his book, and he is said to have read it through twice. Afterwards he fell into so deep a sleep that those outside the chamber heard him. But about midnight he called two of his freedmen, Cleanthes the physician, and Butas, who was his chief agent in public matters. Butas he sent down to the sea, to find out whether all had set sail successfully, and bring him word; while to the physician he gave his hand to bandage, since it was inflamed by the blow that he had given the slave. This made everybody more cheerful, since they thought he had a mind to live. In a little while Butas came with tidings that all had set sail except Crassus, who was detained by some business or other, and he too was on the point of embarking; Butas reported also that a heavy storm and a high wind prevailed at sea. On hearing this, Cato groaned with pity for those in peril on the sea, and sent Butas down again, to find out whether anyone had been driven back by the storm and wanted any necessaries, and to report to him.

 

And now the birds were already beginning to sing, when he fell asleep again for a little while. And when Butas came and told him that harbours were very quiet, he ordered him to close the door, throwing himself down upon his couch as if he were going to rest there for what still remained of the night. 5But when Butas had gone out, Cato drew his sword from its sheath and stabbed himself below the breast. His thrust, however, was somewhat feeble, owing to the inflammation in his hand, and so he did not at once dispatch himself, but in his death struggle fell from the couch and made a loud noise by overturning a geometrical abacusb that stood near. His servants heard the noise and cried out, and his son at once ran in, together with his friends. They saw that he was smeared with blood, and that most of his bowels were protruding, but that he still had his eyes open and was alive; and they were terribly shocked. But the physician went to him and tried to replace his bowels, which remained uninjured, and to sew up the wound. Accordingly, when Cato recovered and became aware of this, he pushed the physician away, tore his bowels with his hands, rent the wound still more, and so died.

[Lucius Calpurnius Capitolinus]

http://tinyurl.com/b9jgg

 

This is a good link that details Seneca's views on suicide. This ought not to be taken as a universal view on the subject, but many Romans would have felt similarly.

[Lost_Warrior]

In some terms, if a child was in some way making a bad image for the rest of his family, or had dishonored his family by commiting a crime or something etc. It was seen as honorable for that person to commit suicide and the Romans would admire how he had put his family before his own life. Also it was viewed in good context in military terms. The Romans considered Death before surrender to be very, very honorable and note worthy. After all, you fought for Rome through and threw, and would rather die by your own blade than by the blade of an enemy.

 

Makes sense. As Pertinax mentioned before this is seen in alot of "older" traditions. Was it only with the rise of Christianity that this practice was discontinued?

 

In the bad context, it would be horrible for some one in debt to commit suicide, becuase that would leave his family in quite the situation, and probley if worse came to pass, his wife might have to become a slave to compensate. Also, in the negative context, would be if persay, a comander was to kill himself and leave his men divided. That would be an ultimate of cowerdlyness and dishonor

 

Also makes perfect sense.

 

And now the birds were already beginning to sing, when he fell asleep again for a little while. And when Butas came and told him that harbours were very quiet, he ordered him to close the door, throwing himself down upon his couch as if he were going to rest there for what still remained of the night. 5But when Butas had gone out, Cato drew his sword from its sheath and stabbed himself below the breast. His thrust, however, was somewhat feeble, owing to the inflammation in his hand, and so he did not at once dispatch himself, but in his death struggle fell from the couch and made a loud noise by overturning a geometrical abacusb that stood near. His servants heard the noise and cried out, and his son at once ran in, together with his friends. They saw that he was smeared with blood, and that most of his bowels were protruding, but that he still had his eyes open and was alive; and they were terribly shocked. But the physician went to him and tried to replace his bowels, which remained uninjured, and to sew up the wound. Accordingly, when Cato recovered and became aware of this, he pushed the physician away, tore his bowels with his hands, rent the wound still more, and so died.

 

Ouch! Had to make it as horrid as possible for himself didn't he?

Edited February 10, 2006 by Lost_Warrior

[Primus Pilus]

Ouch! Had to make it as horrid as possible for himself didn't he?

In this case, Plutarch is making it very clear that Cato's suicide, even if under horrible circumstances, was not only honorable under Roman tradition but was actually courageous and glorious.

[Lost_Warrior]

I see...

 

This also makes sense, though it seems to me a little over the top. I'm guessing Plutarch took liberties with the story

[Neos Dionysos]

I see...

 

This also makes sense, though it seems to me a little over the top. I'm guessing Plutarch took liberties with the story

 

There are always a little bit of liberities taken, but it does get the point across to the reader that Cato met with such a glorious end as PP pointed out.

 

Slightly off-topic, but was not 'death in battle' seen as the highest of all honors a man could bestow onto his family? Also, where did death by child-birth rate? Would the girl be venerated by the family and the honor/prestige increased or was she simply mourned?

[Lost_Warrior]

I believe it was considered the greatest honor to die on Mars' field (battle field)

 

As for the childbirth thing I have no idea.

[M. Porcius Cato]

I believe it was considered the greatest honor to die on Mars' field (battle field)

 

Not necessarily--that's a modern bit of Germanic death-worship if you ask me. When Varro hurried to Rome after Cannae, the Senate applauded him for rescuing what few he could (if my memory serves correctly).

[M. Porcius Cato]

Also, I'd just add that Porcia--who killed herself by swallowing hot coals--was Cato's daughter.

 

If you ask me, Petronius' suicide (in Tacitus) was much more civilized: Petronius showed Rome that an Epicurean had all the mettle of a Stoic but twice the charm. Here is Tacitus' story:

 

With regard to Caius Petronius, I ought to dwell a little on his antecedents. His days he passed in sleep, his nights in the business and pleasures of life. Indolence had raised him to fame, as energy raises others, and he was reckoned not a debauchee and spendthrift, like most of those who squander their substance, but a man of refined luxury. And indeed his talk and his doings, the freer they were and the more show of carelessness they exhibited, were the better liked, for their look of natural simplicity. Yet as proconsul of Bithynia and soon afterwards as consul, he showed himself a man of vigour and equal to business. Then falling back into vice or affecting vice, he was chosen by Nero to be one of his few intimate associates, as a critic in matters of taste, while the emperor thought nothing charming or elegant in luxury unless Petronius had expressed to him his approval of it. Hence jealousy on the part of Tigellinus, who looked on him as a rival and even his superior in the science of pleasure. And so he worked on the prince's cruelty, which dominated every other passion, charging Petronius with having been the friend of Scaevinus, bribing a slave to become informer, robbing him of the means of defence, and hurrying into prison the greater part of his domestics.

 

It happened at the time that the emperor was on his way Campania and that Petronius, after going as far as Cumae, was there detained. He bore no longer the suspense of fear or of hope. Yet he did not fling away life with precipitate haste, but having made an incision in his veins and then, according to his humour, bound them up, he again opened them, while he conversed with his friends, not in a serious strain or on topics that might win for him the glory of courage. And he listened to them as they repeated, not thoughts on the immortality of the soul or on the theories of philosophers, but light poetry and playful verses. To some of his slaves he gave liberal presents, a flogging to others. He dined, indulged himself in sleep, that death, though forced on him, might have a natural appearance. Even in his will he did not, as did many in their last moments, flatter Nero or Tigellinus or any other of the men in power. On the contrary, he described fully the prince's shameful excesses, with the names of his male and female companions and their novelties in debauchery, and sent the account under seal to Nero. Then he broke his signet-ring, that it might not be subsequently available for imperilling others.

[Lost_Warrior]

Also, I'd just add that Porcia--who killed herself by swallowing hot coals--was Cato's daughter.

 

I thought she was Brutus' daughter?...oh, wait, she was Brutus' wife. Thats right...lol

 

Not necessarily--that's a modern bit of Germanic death-worship if you ask me. When Varro hurried to Rome after Cannae, the Senate applauded him for rescuing what few he could (if my memory serves correctly).

 

Hm...I read that somewhere...Perhaps though, the great "honor" was a matter of convenience. It was of practical importance to rescue any that could be rescued, however if one happened to die, despite everyone's best efforts, it was still a great honor to that person.

[Pertinax]

I would like to point out that a major strand of Japanese seppuku ( ritual suicide-hari kiri is a vulgar western abasement) is the concept of admonishment by moral rigour. For example a highly respected retainer might commit seppuku to admonish a young ruler who was departing from his fathers moral precepts-this was 1.shocking -the self inflicted death of such a worthy individual was a stern warning of impropriety-they could not countenance the morality of the Lord and chose death. 2. impeccably correct-it showed iron moral virtue.

I am no lover of Cato as you all know , but I see his death as being understandable in this cross cultural context. The dramatic and painful circumstances reinforce his perceived moral position.Remember the "respect" seppuku of Admiral Togo (victor of Tsushima ) on the death of the Emperor.

[Andrew Dalby]

Also, where did death by child-birth rate? Would the girl be venerated by the family and the honor/prestige increased or was she simply mourned?

 

Interesting question. all that occurs to me is this: the cognomen 'Postumus/Postuma' meant 'the last of the siblings', therefore, sometimes, 'the one born after the father's death'. I wonder whether there are cases in which the cognomen was given to a child whose mother died in giving birth?