Yahweh And The Romans

[Lucius Calpurnius Capitolinus]

I don't disagree with you. I'm simply trying to point out that there are a number of arguments like the one in the link promoting a polytheistic foundation for Judaic thought.

[Romanstudent19]

Thanks for all the great information. I know that the Romans let people worship their own gods as long as the state ones were worshipped too, were there any Jews who did this and supported the Roman empire, also how did the Jews and the Romans get on with each other, i've heard a lot about the the rebellions and everything but were there any periods of peace. Also did they ever trade between them. I've read in some books and sites that one Emperor (can't remember his name) went straight into the most private holy room of the Temple and was humbled or something by what he saw and became a protector for the Jewish people, does anyone know if this is true?.

 

Also, were there any Jews that became Roman citizens?

 

Thanks.

[Ursus]

Also, were there any Jews that became Roman citizens?

 

 

Yes Like Saul of Tarsus, known to Christians as St. Paul.

 

I also came across a reference that a Jew of Alexandria managed to become the equestrian prefect of Egypt, one of the highest honors in the empire.

 

Some upper class Hellenized Jews were more than willing to become clients and citizens of Rome. Unfortunately this attitude was not shared by a majority of their rebellious peers, and the Hebrews as a whole were never fully assimilated into the Greco-Roman world.

[longbow]

Flavius josephus was a Jewish soldier who became a Roman citizen.When writing about the Roman way of fighting he said

It would be fair enougth to call their drills bloodless battles and their battles bloody drills

I like that qoute .

[chimera]

"It would be fair enougth to call their drills bloodless battles and their battles bloody drills"

That recalls the idea that politics is non-violent war and war is violent politics. Strange that Romans demolished Jerusalem because it revolted, but opposed early Christians for not being warlike - but established the church when it became militaristic.

chimera

[phil25]

I agree with an earlier poster, that there is clear biblical evidence that "Israel" only slowly became monotheistic.

 

Abhram left pagan Ur to follow the idea of a single omnipotent God and found him in Canaan. There he established a covenant with his God - but still it was only his immediate family that followed that path. He was promised that he would become the father of a great nation.

 

His grandson Jacob, after a rocky, duplicitous start, wrestled with a spiritual being (symbolic of his own conscience?) and was rewarded with the title Israel. It was he and his sons who went to Egypt and from whose loins, if we are to believe it, the "people" or children of !srael sprang.

 

But even a cursorary reading of Exodus shows that these children of Isreal were basically pagan. Moses (at the burning bush) has to ask God what his name is so he can tell the people when they ask which of the many Gods has sent him!! (There is also a very odd, fragmentary account during Moses return to Egypt after this incident in which God appears to attach him.) As soon as Moses goes up Sinai, the people make themselves a golden calf (presumably an image of the goddess Hathor) to worship. Time and again, in Canaan, they are punished for turning to Baal ( see story of Elijah) and other local gods and goddesses, including Ishtar. Wise Solomon himself turned to paganism in his dotage, probably under the influence of an Egyptian wife.

 

Now I am NOT saying that Judaism changed, or was ever other than monotheistic - but the Jews seemed to stray often.

 

Maverick though he was as a writer Robert Graves was well-read, and writes in King Jesus, of temple prostitutes which suggests potential correlations with other major pagan holy sites - Diana at Antioch for instance.

 

A fascinating comparison with Herod's temple is that of Bel at Palmyra, which has a similar colonnaded court of massive proportions, and a central cella. In appearance, the Jerusalem temple must thus have drawn on pagan models (or vice versa, I suppose) but the similarity is there.

 

As regards the subject of the thread, I rather think that the jews and Judaism rather perplexed the Romans, and probably infuriated them at times. Note the attempts of both Pilate (under Tiberius) and Gauis to erect imperial images in the temple.

 

Phil

[CiceroD]

One of my history teachers in school once said that the Romans were about the most practical people on earth, but they were not necessarily the most noble.

 

Therefore when The Romans with their practical outlook of religion met the seemingly impractical aspects of Judaism (not being able to worship any other Gods, circumcision, laws of kosher) its not hard to se how they didnt trust the Jews or the Christians and were frustrated with their failed conversion into standard Roman citizens.

 

"The Romans never had much patience with dissent" Barry S Strauss, "The Dark Ages Made Lighter"

[jud]

There are some interesting points made here about the jews and knowing other gods. The indications are however that the jews had long known their god Yahweh. When it was mentioned that Moses needed to ask the name of the god who was sending him to Egypt it wasn't because he didn't know the name of the god of the jews. Discussing this matter the bible commentator Matthew Henry states:

 

1. From God's name, Jehovah, v. 2, 3. He begins with this, I am Jehovah, the same with, I am that I am, the fountain of being, and blessedness, and infinite perfection. The patriarchs knew this name, but they did not know him in this matter by that which this name signifies. God would now be known by his name Jehovah, that is, (1.) A God performing what he had promised, and so inspiring confidence in his promises. (2.) A God perfecting what he had begun, and finishing his own work. In the history of the creation, God is never called Jehovah till the heavens and the earth were finished, Gen. ii. 4.

 

Remember that the jews had been slaves in Egypt for some time. Their God had left them there. The gods of the Egyptians seemed to be stronger. What confidence could the jews have for deliverance. By giving the name, Yahweh was showing that he would now prove himself. Some state the the name should be translated I shall prove to be, what I shall prove to be, and not I am, that I am. Since in effect god was saying I shall prove to be whatever I need to be to deliver my people, which was something that the jews had not seen of Yahweh whilst in captivity.

 

So why say that they should not worship any other gods in the ten commandments. The jews would know of the gods of Egypt and they witnessed the fact that they could not stop the deliverance of the jewish nation. They would learn of new gods in the land of Canaan, but these gods would not be able to stop Jahweh bringing the jews into the promised land and dispossessing their worshipers of their lands. Since no other gods where able to stop Yahweh why should he share his worship with them? Hence the law that the jews should not worship them.