Yahweh And The Romans

[Romanstudent19]

I hope this is the right forum for this, i'm new so i haven't found myself around yet. Anyway i have question, how did the Romans view Yahweh, did they see him as existing, also i know that the Romans adopted some deities from conquered people, did the Romans (any of them) ever worship Yahweh as well. I heard somewhere that there were a few Romans (or it might have been Greeks too) that wanted to turn Judaism into a mystery tradition/religion, does anyone know if this is true.

 

I'm asking because i'm doing research on the Jews and Romans (plus i'm kind of interested in it too). I would have thought that the Romans might have added Yahweh to their worship because, as he does seem to be a great war god (possibly more than that?).

 

Anyway, thanks for any help you can give me. .

[Lucius Calpurnius Capitolinus]

My elementary understanding of this relationship is that the Romans recognized all of the gods out of fear of offending any. They even prayed to the "gods they did not know about." A god as seemingly powerful as the god of the Hebrews would have no doubt been one that they feared and respected. Later Jews would have been threatened with death for refusing to worship the Emperor. I am sure that there is someone here with more helpful information.

[Primus Pilus]

I believe that Yahweh, much like Zeus and the 'leading gods' of other cultures was associated as Jove or Jupiter by the Romans. In that respect in the Roman perspective, perhaps Yahweh may have been already a part of the Roman pantheon and it was just Judaism that ignored the rest.

 

As far as I know, however, there isn't any evidence of the Romans adopting the name Yahweh as a specific member (by name) of their own pantheon. I am speaking strictly from a cursory viewpoint however and have never put any real research into the topic.

[Pantagathus]

Until of course the general Christian conversion, I would say tha Yahweh was too absolute for Roman sensibilities to actually worship him in the Judaic sense. Let us not forget the Commandments...

 

Like P-P said, they no doubt honored him out of respect but I think true worship came with too much consequence for a Roman.

[tflex]

Biggest reason they could not worship Yahweh is the first commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." This would have been simply unacceptable for pagan Rome. To worship Yahweh whole heartedly would require the worshiper to renounce all other gods. But I think they did fear the Jewish god and therefore respected him.

Edited February 9, 2006 by tflex

[Pertinax]

This may be a "divergent " post ,but we know of the textual interweaving of Yahwist and Elohimist texts in genesis -how were these deities differentiated ( at that time )? In doctrine would the Jews separate the two totally and would the Romans understand the difference? Nowadays ,textually , we have conflation can anyone give some "route maps " for the historical reality?

[Lucius Calpurnius Capitolinus]

I think that the "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" commandment presupposes that there were other gods. This is one of the reasons that some Muslims accuse the Jews of being polytheistic. Certainly the Romans would have encountered a Judaism that would have been closer to these old ways of thinking than we are today. It is certainly a mistake to assume that the religion hasn't changed over the last 2000 years.

[LEG X EQ]

I heard somewhere that there were a few Romans (or it might have been Greeks too) that wanted to turn Judaism into a mystery tradition/religion, does anyone know if this is true.

 

Yes, those were greeks. There was even the branch of Hellenic Judaism.

 

Personally, i think the Romans didnt care much about Yahweh. There was even a Roman author who stated that Judaism was a strange religion. As for the Jews, they werent granted citizenship till the 3rd. Centuary AD. So Romans could tell Jews appart from others. Further more, Romans and Jews went against eachother quite often, which resulted in the Massacres of entire jewish villages or periods were the first born of every jew got killed.

 

Romans had their Pantheon their pagan believes and their pagan cults. They never worshiped Yahweh and the entire philosophy that he is based upon. But were tolarant to those who believed in it.

[Pertinax]

the intransigence of Judaism and Christianity seem very congruent.

[Ursus]

In the Interpretatio Romano, YHWH = Jupiter.

 

Jupiter had a better sex life though.

[tflex]

I think that the "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" commandment presupposes that there were other gods. This is one of the reasons that some Muslims accuse the Jews of being polytheistic. Certainly the Romans would have encountered a Judaism that would have been closer to these old ways of thinking than we are today. It is certainly a mistake to assume that the religion hasn't changed over the last 2000 years.

 

The commandment does not presuppose that there are other gods. It just presupposes that people worship other gods but does not acknowledge their existance. The bible or the old testament is very clear that there is only one god in existance and thats Yahweh, it's certainly been consistent for the last 2000 years. During ancient times and indeed 2000 years ago their was a culture of paganism and that was the predominant religion at the time. There are many instances in the bible were the Jews would fall into that trap of worshiping pagan gods but by the time Islam was born, paganism had all but died out so they did not have to deal with that threat to the extent that Jews and Christians did. Remeber monotheism was still a fairly new concept at the time and was still evolving. Peoples beliefs evolve but the text itself has never evolved or changed in the last 2000 years.

Edited February 10, 2006 by tflex

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Funny, my Latin teacher/Ph.D. brought up a comment relevant to this subject. He said the thing that was 'truly' odd was not monotheism, but rather that it was a religion that proselytizeied, because he said not too many religions out there in the Roman World bothered to go out and preach/convert like the disciples.

So what do you guys think?

[LEG X EQ]

In the Interpretatio Romano, YHWH = Jupiter.

 

Yes, but only in "rank" and in power. Lets not forget that Yahweh is the sole creator , the sole ruler and is practicaly invisible For the Jews. While Jupiter, Thor and Zeus. Were not the sole creator nor the sole ruler. And Jupiter and zeus etc. where always portrait as larger humans. Furthermore the Philosophy that Yahweh he is based upon and his 12 commandments are the complete opposite to Paganism. When a Roman fisher was out at sea and a storm brewed up, he prayed to Neptune, the god of water, and this was completely legitimate. while the jewish fisher would have prayed to his only god.

Jupiter was the leader of the Pantheon like Zeus was the leader of the Olymp, but they were not devine.

They are all just equal in terms that they are ranked the No.1 of their faiths.

 

The whole relationship between jews and Romans is all well documented and recorded. Non of it is a big mystery or secret.

 

1. For the Romans, the jews were not seen as one tribe or one ethnicity but as the one people that represent their religion and worship Yahweh. A Numidian jew was the same as a jew in Judea, for the romans. For whatever reason the Romans thought that all jews were not suited to be Roman citizens. A jew was not a roman citizen and therefor had not the roman rights. Those jews that lived in the empire outside of judea, were segregated into a ghetto, with limited rights. They were only allowed to leave the Ghetto at certain times of the day. Until in the 3rd.C.AD when jews were granted the citizenship.

2. They only tolerated the jweish religion and its practise as long as the jews remaind peaceful towards the Romans. Once a rebellion or another conflict arose, than the Romans were ruthless and merciless towards the jews and their religion. The entire temple of jerusalem was destroyed and plundered. those who remaind within the temple were butchered by the Romans. All of those jewish villages that were destroyed by the romans, surely contained a holy site for the jews, that was destroyed relantlesly along with the village.

3.The Romans themselveshad their own gods and didnt worship,honour or respected yahweh. They just tolerated the jews that practised that religion and worshiped him. But only while they remained peaceful, once the jews rebbelled, nothing was tolerated or respected(destruction of the temple in jerusalem).

[Lucius Calpurnius Capitolinus]

I think that the "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" commandment presupposes that there were other gods. This is one of the reasons that some Muslims accuse the Jews of being polytheistic. Certainly the Romans would have encountered a Judaism that would have been closer to these old ways of thinking than we are today. It is certainly a mistake to assume that the religion hasn't changed over the last 2000 years.

 

The commandment does not presuppose that there are other gods. It just presupposes that people worship other gods but does not acknowledge their existance. The bible or the old testament is very clear that there is only one god in existance and thats Yahweh, it's certainly been consistent for the last 2000 years. During ancient times and indeed 2000 years ago their was a culture of paganism and that was the predominant religion at the time. There are many instances in the bible were the Jews would fall into that trap of worshiping pagan gods but by the time Islam was born, paganism had all but died out so they did not have to deal with that threat to the extent that Jews and Christians did. Remeber monotheism was still a fairly new concept at the time and was still evolving. Peoples beliefs evolve but the text itself has never evolved or changed in the last 2000 years.

 

There is plenty of textual evidence that points to a polytheistic foundation for Judaism. Please know that I am by no means endorsing this argument, however, I feel that it is a strong enough argument to at least recognize. Check the following link: http://tinyurl.com/dqu8a . Basically, there is evidence in the Bible that points to pre-biblical texts. It is to these texts that I am refering. The Torah has not changed, but interpretations of it have and our understanding of it has.

 

As for the Muslims, there are Muslims who to this day argue that both Christians and Jews are polytheistic. Christianities "Trinity" is looked down upon by some Muslims as polytheism.

 

Ultimately, I do think that you and I disagree on any fundamental level. I am simply trying to point out that there are many arguments to be made for a polytheistic foundation upon which the three main monotheistic traditions have been built.

[tflex]

There is plenty of textual evidence that points to a polytheistic foundation for Judaism. Please know that I am by no means endorsing this argument, however, I feel that it is a strong enough argument to at least recognize. Check the following link: http://tinyurl.com/dqu8a . Basically, there is evidence in the Bible that points to pre-biblical texts. It is to these texts that I am refering. The Torah has not changed, but interpretations of it have and our understanding of it has.

 

As for the Muslims, there are Muslims who to this day argue that both Christians and Jews are polytheistic. Christianities "Trinity" is looked down upon by some Muslims as polytheism.

 

Ultimately, I do think that you and I disagree on any fundamental level. I am simply trying to point out that there are many arguments to be made for a polytheistic foundation upon which the three main monotheistic traditions have been built.

 

I respect your opinion but I think you should read it from the original source and have a hebrew dictionary handy. Hebrew is a very specific language and when translated into English it can be a little confusing because English is a more generalized language.

 

I checked out the link, I can't comment on every single point it will simply take too long. But the first point 'Let us make man in our image, in our likness...' When reading this you have to recognize that there was the first earth age and God was in the process of creating the second earth age which we live in now. Genesis 1v2 'Now the earth became formless and empty...' implying there was something that existed before. The word 'was' should be 'became' if translated exactly from hebrew. Infact most bibles have a note at the bottom of the page indicating that the word 'was' is possibly 'became', that makes a big difference. The first earth age is talked about in much more detail in other books like Ezekiel, Isaiah etc. In the first earth age, there were beings in their spirtual bodies which god created. So when god says 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness' he is referring to the angelic beings in their spirtual forms which he had already created in the first earth age.

Edited February 10, 2006 by tflex