Restoring The Hagia Sophia

[Chyhoedd da]

Well it looks like many of you are Orthodox, and cant see any other veiw.

 

- The Hagia Sophia has been in Turkish hands longer then the greeks.

- If the Hagia Sophia must be turned over to Orthodox church, why not turn over the pentacles the Romans took back to the Egyptians?

- The poll probally (and hopefully) wont work. Even if it does, most likely over 90% of the people who voted "Yes" would never set eyes upon it in real life.

- Religion in todays politics should be eliminated, unless the country is a theocracy.

- Why not restore the Sphinx of Egypt, which the french "altered" ... That is older then the Hagia Sophia.

- It is sad to see famous places dwindle in thier state, but the Hagia Sophia isnt in bad shaope, it is well-preserved, and anyways there is no reason that the CHURCH (who wants world peace) would hinder world peace (EU) for one STRUCTURE!

- Where may I ask are the links about Hagias Sophia's poor-state? ... Last I knew it was doing fine and well.

- The Turkish would not want such a structure to go to ruin, for it is also a historic monument for them. They used it for a mosque for over 500 years and finally made it a museuem so that all could see its beauty.

- We are lucky into todays world, for there are no crusades or holy wars (not counting fanatics, not enough of them, and that is good) .... if European Nations in the EU would deny an Islamic country entry into there organization over a religous structure that would sure diminish the EU's honor and image while probally causing a chain reaction of declining ISlamic friendliness.

 

 

Let it still be a museum. If the Church wishes to donate, then donate money as anyone else would ... in a box. The church most likely has strings attached to thier offer, like focusing on primarily christian things.

 

Still, I would like to see these links complaining of the Hagia Sophia's state.

[Neos Dionysos]

In a rare unexpected opinion from Favonius, he sides with the church, because this building is far too important to take lightly or poorly. I am sick of Turk racisim over it's rich archaeological content.

 

Hagia Sophia becoming Orthodox again would be incredibly symbolic but I don't think it would ever happen. After WWI I think the Greeks came close to gaining control over Istanbul/Constatinople because of the Treaty of Sevres which was revised after they were defeated in a war with Turkey.

 

It would be very symbolic and I would love too see it but I doubt it will happen. It all depends on how hard the EU would push them for this requirement if they were to even impose it. I could see Greece pushing this obviously, (and if Pope John Paul II were still alive I could see the vatican and Italy behind it as well), but I don't think there is any of the support for it. Besides, a much higher concern is the Armenian Genocide, though I wonder how much the EU cares about that...

[Neos Dionysos]

Well it looks like many of you are Orthodox, and cant see any other veiw.

 

- The Hagia Sophia has been in Turkish hands longer then the greeks.

- If the Hagia Sophia must be turned over to Orthodox church, why not turn over the pentacles the Romans took back to the Egyptians?

- The poll probally (and hopefully) wont work. Even if it does, most likely over 90% of the people who voted "Yes" would never set eyes upon it in real life.

- Religion in todays politics should be eliminated, unless the country is a theocracy.

- Why not restore the Sphinx of Egypt, which the french "altered" ... That is older then the Hagia Sophia.

- It is sad to see famous places dwindle in thier state, but the Hagia Sophia isnt in bad shaope, it is well-preserved, and anyways there is no reason that the CHURCH (who wants world peace) would hinder world peace (EU) for one STRUCTURE!

- Where may I ask are the links about Hagias Sophia's poor-state? ... Last I knew it was doing fine and well.

- The Turkish would not want such a structure to go to ruin, for it is also a historic monument for them. They used it for a mosque for over 500 years and finally made it a museuem so that all could see its beauty.

- We are lucky into todays world, for there are no crusades or holy wars (not counting fanatics, not enough of them, and that is good) .... if European Nations in the EU would deny an Islamic country entry into there organization over a religous structure that would sure diminish the EU's honor and image while probally causing a chain reaction of declining ISlamic friendliness.

 

 

Let it still be a museum. If the Church wishes to donate, then donate money as anyone else would ... in a box. The church most likely has strings attached to thier offer, like focusing on primarily christian things.

 

Still, I would like to see these links complaining of the Hagia Sophia's state.

 

I'm Catholic and I doubt there is a majority of Orthodox here... don't assume.

 

This is a relegious thing, not simply turning over what one people took from another. Egypt is Muslim and I doubt they care much about things Rome took from them 2 millineums ago, they care more about what European nations took from thier cultural history. (Mummies and artifacts).

 

So simply because someone does not go to the site means they can't have strong personal beilefs? Many Catholics have never gone to a mass at St. Peter's Basilica... does that make them not important if a matter of thier faith were in question?

 

The links are there, and you can do a google. While the church is still looking very wonderful, w/o proper care it will deteriotate over time. Like all museums it needs to be maintained, I think the point those who started this petition was, (besides restoring it to Orthodox Christianity), is that it is not being well maintained and taken care of.

 

Religion in politics will never be eliminated... it's the sad truth of the world.

 

The Sphnix I believe can't be 'restored' w/o damaging it further... hence why it has not been fixing since Napolaeons' troops shot off the nose with a cannonball.

 

The EU is already badly damaged in image after the recent cartoons from France and Denmark... as well as the recent weeks long riots of Muslim in France. So they aren't 'strike' free...

 

Finally, IIRC, people have tried to donate to it's restoration but the government will not allow it... I could be wrong but this is what I have been told in the past.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Neos Dionysos

[Viggen]

Why not restore the Sphinx of Egypt, which the french "altered"

If you refer to the nose...

 

Frederick Lewis Norden sketched the Sphinx in 1737 and published detailed drawings in 1755 showing the Sphinx with no nose.

 

Muhammad al-Husayni Taqi al-Din al-Maqrizi (died CE 1442), writes in a book called "al-Mawa`iz wa al-i`tibar fi dhikr al-khitat wa al-athar" that the face, specifically the nose and ears, were demolished in 1378 by a Sufi named Sa'im al-dahr.

 

Now the french troops (with Napoleon) entered Egypt in 1798. So dont blame the french...

 

The Hagia Sophia has been in Turkish hands longer then the greeks.

It was rebuilt in 537 AD, it stayed in "greeks" hands till 1453 when the Ottoman Turks took over... that would be 900 odd years in "greek" hands versus about 550 years in "turk" hands....

 

just to clarify...

 

regards

viggen

[Chyhoedd da]

Ah ok, thank you for correcting me Viggen, I had always learned that Napoleans (or some french guys) practice at the Sphinx and that is how the nose was ruined. Perhaps American education isnt all good after all.

 

Well, the Hagia Sophia has been burnt/crumbled/destroyed many times, so that day is one of many. Though I thought it was built by the Byzantines, captureed by the Greeks, and Then Captured by the Turks. So I may have assumed s0ome Greek hodlings as Byzantium, to me they (cultures) are similar.

 

I veiw as the people on the blog as religous fanatics. Fanatics can only be happy in total dominance or in death.

 

 

Here are things I disagree with what they say:

 

The church of Christ was possessed and converted into a mosque, until it was decreed a museum. During this long time, it has been subjected to more than its fair share of abuse and denigration.

 

It sounds to me that the Turks have not only maintained the structure, but also added onto it, making its beauty even more.

 

It is a disgrace and disrespect to a religion and god when holy places are unwillingly turned purely into tourist attractions. How would the Muslims feel if one of their holiest places was turned into a museum for tourists by a conquering power?

 

I think out of respect and the desire for thier people and everybody else in the world, they opened its doors so that all can behold its beauty. Not just Greek Orthodox or Muslims, but also Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Buddhist, Hindus, Pagans, and many others. Also this was used as a Mosque for around 500 years, so this is one of thier holy places.

 

With its conversion into a museum in 1934, Hagia Sophia was frozen in some past age, vaguely Byzantine. Directed by the then historicist paradigm that saw the past as unchanging,

 

What is wrong with this? They do not want the bulding to be a monument, preserved, so that manygenerations can see the Byzantium power and might? We should preserve it as a museum so that its stay if long and peaceful.

 

Times have changed. Turkey has long severed its ties with the darker aspects of its Ottoman past. It aspires to join the European Union. The time has come to restore Hagia Sophia

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

I veiw as the people on the blog as religous fanatics. Fanatics can only be happy in total dominance or in death.

 

Quite frankly I don't know what you are babbling about. We're not fanatics, it's just that for some [or most] of us, our common sense tells us the Hagia Sophia has a huge historic/cultural value and so that we must support any effort to restore it. Also a lot of us were raised Christian so we definitely tie our beliefs into it, but not 'radically,' rather fundamentally.

 

It sounds to me that the Turks have not only maintained the structure, but also added onto it, making its beauty even more.

 

...Well it's your belief, but I can hardly say that they even 'tried' to maintain it now or even made more beautiful when they don't even accept money to restore it, I don't call that adding much.

 

 

I think out of respect and the desire for thier people and everybody else in the world, they opened its doors so that all can behold its beauty. Not just Greek Orthodox or Muslims, but also Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Buddhist, Hindus, Pagans, and many others. Also this was used as a Mosque for around 500 years, so this is one of thier holy places.

 

Holy? It has no historical root connecting to the founding of Islam, all they did was just conquer Constantinople because of their jihad rhetoric. And don't go saying the opposite that Constantinople has no connection to Christian roots because the Romans/Greeks are their original owners of this domain.

 

NO! This building should not be turned into a religous place again, letting only thier followers enjoy its beauty. This should be shared withall who with to lay eyes upon it and within it. Not just to those who believe in jesus christ or god.

 

Not saying that they must, but why not? What harm is it gonna do.

*Oh no, the world is going to explode! *

It was originally a place of worship for the majority of its existence, then why not again.

 

The stench of over zealous fanatics is unbearable here. Thjey want the building to be turned solely over to the orthodox church and make it soley for the use of religion. They most likely will not let Muslims in, as Muslims ban all others from Mecca. These people are blind. They can not see how beautiful the structure is, the richness of history, all they see is a religious place. They turn a blind eye on what the builders of this structure wanted to show. The Beauty of Christ and the Church.

 

The only reason why it is so beautiful is because it 'is' a primarily a religiously/iconographic place, kinda self contradicting there. The builder of this structure wanted to show their 'faith' too ya know.

 

This is over 150 years ago. Much has changed since then, then the English would display the insane like animals at the zoo. Then, Children were made to work long hours in the hot and often dangerous factories. Then, Europe was ruled by dictators with supreme is not absolute rule. This was a long time ago, this was in a time were the soon to be beheaded sat in Big Ben or when the streets of france ran with blood. That era is gone, we have mostly turned away from that, though sometimes there are cases in which such things reacure.

 

Bah... India is a prime example contradicting your statement if you know about the state of their country.

Anyways, we is a term I can interpret as referring to 'have'/Western countries while the 'have nots' commonly have the situation a 150 years ago.

 

I HAVE NEVER heard such a thing as this. Islam does not forbid beautiful works of art, for many shrines and holy places are shining with gold and intricate designs. I will never believe a word of this even on my death bed. This I feel is a Lie. A lie.

 

Is it not Islamic tradition to forbid it? Why is there not magnificient statues of past Islamic figures? Another example of Islam forbidding art is the written Arabic language itself. Because Islam forbids artistry, they displayed it in the way which they write(hey, it looks artistic), which is good and beautiful in a way.

 

The EU is not a relgious organization. It is not a historcal building restoration project. The EU should not listen to these drunk zealots and thier cries. They (The EU) should deal with Turkey as it does with any other country seaking a seat in the EU. Nothing special should be needed for Turkeys entrance to the EU that is not demanded of any other country.

 

Why not let the Stone Henge become purely pagan? Let those who have worshipped there for 1,000s of years have sole accessto it. For it is a tourism spot, and all the tourist touching the stones and such have severly broken and ruined the rocks until in a dire (and late) attempt to preserve the stones was stopped.

 

Though, once again it isnt Christian, thatis why many dont care, if we made a petetion on this, many Christains would cry Foul!

 

If they want to see the glory of god, then by god, take the short road there, becuase it'd do alot of people good if they did so.

 

To many deaths have been caused in the name of religoin, Over 90% would be my guess. Can we not just not be so zealous, greedy, and posseive over everything. Let those who posess it; posess it.

 

Well it's a fact of life that religion plays a large part in many peoples' lives. But as your other states, they seem like anti-Christian propaganda which I hear commonly, crusaders/zealots here and there.

 

As for Turkey's EU movement, well its up to the EU and they can biased if they want and demand the Hagia Sophia be a requirement, but its not gonna happen I suppose.

 

 

"After all this, I hope no one take my comments as offensive."

[Ursus]

To many deaths have been caused in the name of religoin, Over 90% would be my guess. .

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting over 90% of deaths in human history are attributed to religious violence? Disease, starvation, accidents, old age and non-religious violence account for the other 10%?

[Ludovicus]

Want to start some really serious rioting and foment even more bloodshed? Give the Hagia Sophia back to the Christians. If you think the row over the Mohammed cartoons was bad, your idea of forcing Turkey to hand over this beautiful building to Christian powers would ignite the entire Moslem world all the more. Haven't enough people died this past week? If your line of thinking is correct, Spain should be kicked out of the UE until it returns all the synagogues and mosques it expropriated after 1492 to their original owners. I'm a Christian and I can't believe what an exotic and ill-conceived idea is being discussed here. Turkey needs to come up to UE standards in regards to human rights before becoming a UE member. Returning the Hagia Sophia to the Vatican or the Greek Orthodox Church, no!

[Honorius]

Want to start some really serious rioting and foment even more bloodshed? Give the Hagia Sophia back to the Christians. If you think the row over the Mohammed cartoons was bad, your idea of forcing Turkey to hand over this beautiful building to Christian powers would ignite the entire Moslem world all the more. Haven't enough people died this past week? If your line of thinking is correct, Spain should be kicked out of the UE until it returns all the synagogues and mosques it expropriated after 1492 to their original owners. I'm a Christian and I can't believe what an exotic and ill-conceived idea is being discussed here. Turkey needs to come up to UE standards in regards to human rights before becoming a UE member. Returning the Hagia Sophia to the Vatican or the Greek Orthodox Church, no!

 

whats UE? dont you mean the EU? im in aus correct me if im mistaken..

[Ursus]

I think this thread has gone on long enough. Those that wish may sign the petition (for all the good it will do). Those that don't can move on.