I'm Sorry If This Is A Bad Topic! Hbo Rome Vs. Actual Events&a

[M. Porcius Cato]

Another inaccuracy concerns the lead-up to Caesar crossing the Rubicon. In the HBO version (I think the episode was "Titus Pullo Brings Down the Republic"), the tribune acting on Caesar's behalf was Antony, who foolishly forgets to use his veto (sounds like Antony), thereby leading the Senate to declare Caesar an enemy of Rome, which led Caesar to march against his country-men and put a sword to the republic.

 

True in spirit but not in fact. The acutal events ran like this.

 

First, one of Caesar's buddies Caelius brought a bill that would allow Caesar to run for the consulship while still a governor of Gaul. This was an unconstitutional bill, and not even Pompey Magnus dared to break this important tradition--and for good reason, the lapse between offices was a defining element of the republic: only monarchs served continuously. Moreover, the bill would have allowed Caesar to escape prosecution for his crimes during his first consulship, his illegal levies, and his illegal crossings into Germania. As consul, he could ram through rewards for his veterans, as Pompey had done with Caesar's help, and thus the cycle of the politician-general would go on, spiralling to who-knows-where?

 

Convinced by Cato and the long debates in the Senate, Pompey finally declared that Caesar had to give up his province just like everyone else, months before the consular election. But then, either bought with Ceasar's Gallic Gold or wishing to play for Caesar the same role Caesar had played for Pompey, the tribune Curio vetoed the motion--and every motion--to bring Caesar home at the expiration of his governorship.

 

What would happen if Caesar brought a Roman army against Rome? Here the HBO series quotes Pompey almost perfectly, "I only have to stomp my food and all over Italy legionaries and cavalry will rise up from the ground." Taking command of the two legions at Capua, Pompey ordered fresh levies, while Caesar ominously stalked Ravenna with the 13th.

 

Now Antony was made tribune, and he attacked Pompey viciously at every chance, vetoing anything that was proposed. When on 1 Jan 49, Metellus Scipio finally named the date by which Caesar was to return his legions to the republic, Antony vetoed the bill, despite the nearly unanimous assent of the senate to Scipio's motion. On 7 Jan, a state of emergency was declared, and Pompey moved his troops into Rome and warned Antony that he could not guarantee his protection. Antony quickly scurried off to Ravenna where Caesar was dining. Immediately, Caesar ordered an attack on Italy, and after taking a leisurely day of banquets and baths, his carriage caught up to the troops at the Rubicon, where he delivered that well-rehearsed line of political theatre thas has lived in infamy.

 

After 460 years, the Old Republic--risen from a single town on the banks of the Tiber, successfully resisting kings and conquerors from all over the Mediterranean, expanding the light of Rome over most of the civilized world--was to suffer the final blitzkrieg and spiral downward into the horrors of perpetual dictatorship.

Edited February 10, 2006 by M. Porcius Cato

[Skarr]

They got the triumph all wrong and not only did they get that wrong, they also botched up the execution of Vercingetorix.

 

First, elephants ..... Some years before Caesar celebrated his four triumphs - victories in Gaul, Egypt, Pontus and Numidia (I think that was a little controversial since Caesar fought Cato and Scipio, who were allied with King Juba and triumphs are generally given only to generals who fight Rome's enemies with a specific kill count), Pompey wanted to bring in elephants but they were too big to fit into the gate. He finally settled for a chariot with four white horses or something like that. He was disappointed but that was that. It is therefore highly unlikely that Caesar used elephants.

 

Second, the ceremony with Octavian rubbing sacrificial blood on Caesar's face is pure BS. They would have used some kind of dye or powder, not blood, which was traditionally spilled on the ground and on the altar, open to the sky, in the tradition established by Numa Pompilius. The triumphal procession was circular in route and ended at the temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus where Caesar himself, as the head priest, would have performed any ceremonies. He may have stood on the steps and waved to the crowds but there was no way he would have erected a podium as shown in the series with special guests like Atia, Antony, etc. That was all BS.

 

Finally, Vercingetorix was paraded in the triumph (the Gaul one). After that, he was taken back to the Carcer and subsequently, strangled in the Tullianum with no spectators as this is a hole in the ground through which prisoners were lowered for execution. Later, his body would have been dumped in the Tiber or the main sewer and not burnt in reverence by Gaulish slaves.

 

Last, did you see Antony's costume during the triumph ? Highly inaccurate.

[P.Clodius]

Actually it wasn't just Anthony that fled Rome there was another Caesarian tribune called Gaius Curio who fled with him too.

and spiral downward into the horrors of perpetual dictatorship.

As opposed to the 'horrors' perpectual corruption and governmental ineptitude?

[M. Porcius Cato]

As opposed to the 'horrors' perpectual corruption and governmental ineptitude?

 

Good scare quotes. I'd take the petty crimes of a Verres (who was successfully prosecuted by the way) over the unpunished crimes of a Domitian or a Sejanus any day.

[Thibodeau]

These are excelent. I will take it, that, you are all right! I will do a bit of research for confirmation however. Are you classics students? Keep them comming!

[M. Porcius Cato]

Classics was one of my majors as an undergrad. The other one is my bread-and-butter. I guess that makes roman history my jam?

[Primus Pilus]

These are excelent. I will take it, that, you are all right! I will do a bit of research for confirmation however. Are you classics students? Keep them comming!

 

Keep in mind that we sometimes let a bit of partisanship come through in our debates/discussions. Some of the points regarding law, justification and culpability in the final fall of the Republic is very open to interpretation and perspective.

 

With that in mind it might be far more difficult to discern the accuracy of the show regarding some of the 'politics' vs. the types of errors that Skarr pointed out regarding Caesar's triumph.

[P.Clodius]

These are excelent. I will take it, that, you are all right!

I'm right, Cato is wrong! Muuhahahaha

[M. Porcius Cato]

These are excelent. I will take it, that, you are all right! I will do a bit of research for confirmation however. Are you classics students? Keep them comming!

 

Keep in mind that we sometimes let a bit of partisanship come through in our debates/discussions.

 

Partisanship??? When discussing Caesar??? I'm shocked--shocked--that you could accuse anyone of partisanship!

[Primus Pilus]

These are excelent. I will take it, that, you are all right! I will do a bit of research for confirmation however. Are you classics students? Keep them comming!

 

Keep in mind that we sometimes let a bit of partisanship come through in our debates/discussions.

 

Partisanship??? When discussing Caesar??? I'm shocked--shocked--that you could accuse anyone of partisanship!

 

Yes, I know its hard to imagine... but it seems to seep through just a little bit here and there.

 

Now back to errors for HBO Rome.

 

I thought the depiction of Cleopatra as a drug induced whore was ridiculous. The popular opinion we now have of Cleopatra is largely the result of Octavian's propoganda. While she may have used feminine guile to seduce both Caesar and later Antonius, we can be quite sure that Cleopatra was far more than a simple temptress.

 

In that episode they also had Vorenus and Pullo rescue her from the clutches of Ptolemy when this was not the case. Cleopatra was exiled and essentially in hiding (though she may have been in Syria trying to recruit an army at the time of Caesar's arrival . Unfortunately I can't remember all the details of that episode, so its difficult to contradict in exact terms, but I know there were several problems. Perhaps some others here have a better memory of it.

[Skarr]

Primus, in HBO's Rome they have Caesar meeting Cleopatra's brother before he met her. Actually, he refused to meet with Ptolemy (much to his outrage) and only met him briefly on the morning that followed his meeting with Cleopatra, who had herself smuggled into the palace to meet Caesar secretly.

 

Contrary to the popular Hollywood version where Cleopatra seduces Caesar on her first meeting, her primary purpose was to ensure that Caesar hear both their claims to the throne and be the arbiter of their respective fates. The next morning, Caesar summoned both of them to meet him and Ptolemy was unaware of his sister's presence and when he saw her, he screamed the vilest of abuses against Caesar and ran out of the palace where he attempted to unsuccessfully lay siege to the palace. Caesar's proverbial luck held out and he was able to barricade himself with his relatively small army and wait for reinforcements.

 

I do agree that Cleopatra was probably more shrewd than most people give her credit. She was an erudite woman and I don't think it was primarily her beauty that attracted men like Caesar but her intelligence, her political savvy (she was well aware of everything that went on in that region) and many other qualities which made her a fairly capable leader. If you examine the coins minted by Antonius closely (I think you can view them online at the British Museum site), the images of Cleopatra are less than flattering. Given that these coins were minted with Antony's approval, I think you can make the argument that Cleopatra's beauty may be more of a myth than anything else. One thing is for sure though. There was no woman more powerful than her at the time and she was also the wealthiest woman in the world. After all, both Caesar and Antony needed tons of cash to pay their troops and wage their bloody campaigns. Who else but Egypt could finance their ambitions ?

[Gustilius_Falcus]

Cato's death was inaccurately portrayed. HBO had him die right away from his self inflicted wounds but he actually survived his first effort - actually he was saved and his wounds stitched, but he then ripped opened the stitches and started pulling out his intestines.

[Andrew Dalby]

I thought the depiction of Cleopatra as a drug induced whore was ridiculous. The popular opinion we now have of Cleopatra is largely the result of Octavian's propoganda. While she may have used feminine guile to seduce both Caesar and later Antonius, we can be quite sure that Cleopatra was far more than a simple temptress.

 

In that episode they also had Vorenus and Pullo rescue her from the clutches of Ptolemy when this was not the case. Cleopatra was exiled and essentially in hiding (though she may have been in Syria trying to recruit an army at the time of Caesar's arrival . Unfortunately I can't remember all the details of that episode, so its difficult to contradict in exact terms, but I know there were several problems. Perhaps some others here have a better memory of it.

 

Yes, I found the whole depiction of Egypt over-the-top and ridiculous. Ptolemaic Egypt really worked as a major state and as a culture, even though like others it had dynastic conflicts from time to time. I couldn't imagine the Egypt that was portrayed in this series operating for a single year, let alone 300 years!

[WotWotius]

Pompey's son, Sextus is a fair bit younger than he was in reality. He was in his twenties when he witnessed the death of his father; but in Rome, he depicted as an infant of about six.

 

In addition, Sextus' brother, Gnaeus (although called Quintus in the show), is referred to as 'Neptune

[Gustilius_Falcus]

Also Grassus, who was part of the first Triumvirate, wasn't even given a mention.