phil25 Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 I always think of the german title Kaiser (ie Wilhelm II) when I see the word "Caesar" - I also think that makes the link between ancient name and modern title so much better. Interesting and informative posts guys - I was rotten in latin at school!!! Failed my "O" level badly. Now wish I could have the opportunity again. I have taught muself to read inscriptions somewhat, but couldn't translate Caesar to save my life. Sad isn't it? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLavius Valerius Constantinus Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 When talking about pronunciations, I can only stress two importants letters. V is strictly always pronounced as a W sound in classical latin and C is a harsh or just a K sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 if you know italian, latin pronunciations is the easiest thing in the world. I can say it 'cause i'm italian, and to read latin is like to reas anything else in my own language. There are some differeces, but they're very little. If anyone needs help with pronunciation or translation, i'm here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Isn't the "c" sounded rather more softly in modern Italian than in Latin? I thought Cesare (as in borgia was closer to Chesare, thn Kaisare? But I don't speak Italian... Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLavius Valerius Constantinus Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 if you know italian, latin pronunciations is the easiest thing in the world. I can say it 'cause i'm italian, and to read latin is like to reas anything else in my own language. There are some differeces, but they're very little. If anyone needs help with pronunciation or translation, i'm here I humbly envue your expertise. Darn, wish I knew Italian so it would my Latin classes easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Valerius Scerio Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 The Ecclesiastical Latin c differs. In ca-, co-, or cu-, it is hard. In ce-, ci-, cae-, or coe-, are like "ch" in church. Italian adopts this. I don't recall seeing ae or oe in Italian, but for sure for the ce and ci. Ciao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docoflove1974 Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 The Ecclesiastical Latin c differs. In ca-, co-, or cu-, it is hard. In ce-, ci-, cae-, or coe-, are like "ch" in church. Italian adopts this. I don't recall seeing ae or oe in Italian, but for sure for the ce and ci. Exactly. ae and oe fell out as diphthongs relatively early in the various Romance languages...as I recall (and I don't have Rohlfs' (1968) Grammatica storica in front of me, so please forgive any errors), ae and oe became [e] and [o], respectively, and from there normal phonological rules would apply ('ce' requiring the 'ch' sound, 'co' requiring a [k]). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 The Ecclesiastical Latin c differs. In ca-, co-, or cu-, it is hard. In ce-, ci-, cae-, or coe-, are like "ch" in church. Italian adopts this. I don't recall seeing ae or oe in Italian, but for sure for the ce and ci. Ciao. You're right, we havent -ae- or -oe- but their sound it's the modern italian "e". About the hard "C", we have it, as you say, in -ca-, -co-, -cu- but also in chi- and che-. About the latin -ti (like in DIVITIAE") became -zi-, a sound that i think doesnt exist in english. Every italian, if he learns this, can read latin, even a child. PS I study latin (let's say i'm forced to study it about 2-3 hours in a day), french and english. But i study them only from few years, so, please, forgive me if i make grammar mistakes. If i say you how old i am, you could be surprise i know a language like latin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docoflove1974 Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 About the latin -ti (like in DIVITIAE") became -zi-, a sound that i think doesnt exist in english. Every italian, if he learns this, can read latin, even a child. Actually, the [dz] sound does exist in English, in borrowed words mostly: pizza being the prime example. It's not a hard affricate for English speakers to come up with...unlike the palatal liquid (gli), which is murderous on English speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentium Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 About the latin -ti (like in DIVITIAE") became -zi-, a sound that i think doesnt exist in english. Every italian, if he learns this, can read latin, even a child. Actually, the [dz] sound does exist in English, in borrowed words mostly: pizza being the prime example. It's not a hard affricate for English speakers to come up with...unlike the palatal liquid (gli), which is murderous on English speakers. I guess the same could be said of [r] I know someone who's lived here for years now and still can't pronounce it correctly. -------------------------- Ciao Ginevra! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docoflove1974 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 I guess the same could be said of [r] I know someone who's lived here for years now and still can't pronounce it correctly. Actually, that's a different story. 'Romance' r is a tap/flap--which is literally just that, the tip of your tongue tapping quickly against your alveolar ridge--and this does exist in English, but not as a 'r'. For many English dialects (particularly in the Americas), this is the 't' or 'd' which is between vowels when said in rapid speech: butter, button, ladder. Just getting the Anglo-speaking brain to not think 't/d' and to think 'r' instead takes some practice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 About the -r-, i've got a problem with it. No idea of the english way to call my problem of pronunciation, maybe Silentium can help me... (non avrei mai pensato di trovarci un altro italiano...! Sai come si traduce in inglese "r moscia"? ^^ ). is it so difficult to say "gli"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docoflove1974 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 About the -r-, i've got a problem with it. No idea of the english way to call my problem of pronunciation, maybe Silentium can help me...(non avrei mai pensato di trovarci un altro italiano...! Sai come si traduce in inglese "r moscia"? ^^ ). A 'lazy' r...ma non so esattamente di quello parli. Mi puoi descriverlo? is it so difficult to say "gli"? Yeah...I pretty much have to give (American) English speakers a mini-phonetic lesson on how to say it. Interestingly enough, my great-aunt (a Genovese-speaker) can't say it, either. She's taking Italian courses, so that she can learn the standard (Florentine) dialect. I guess Genovese doesn't really have that sound? (I do admit I'm not that good at my own dialects! They weren't taught to me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentium Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 About the -r-, i've got a problem with it. No idea of the english way to call my problem of pronunciation, maybe Silentium can help me... (non avrei mai pensato di trovarci un altro italiano...! Sai come si traduce in inglese "r moscia"? ^^ ). In effetti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docoflove1974 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 A 'lazy' r...ma non so esattamente di quello parli. Mi puoi descriverlo? I don't even have the API font here..anyway hers is an "individual variant" (or whatever it's called in English), she articulates /r/ as an uvular [ʀ] instead of [r] Ah, gotcha...'French r'... Interestingly enough, my great-aunt (a Genovese-speaker) can't say it, either. She's taking Italian courses, so that she can learn the standard (Florentine) dialect. I guess Genovese doesn't really have that sound? (I do admit I'm not that good at my own dialects! They weren't taught to me.) Exactly, speakers of northern dialects tend to pronounce the palatal lateral as [l] (ex. gli--> li) This helps me a ton. I never was able to take an Italian dialectology course...and have no time to put together some readings of my own (although I have the sources here). Start with Rohlfs, and on I go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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