Teutoburgwald

[frankq]

Has anyone read ''The Battle that Stopped Rome'' covering Varus' defeat at the hands of Arminius and the German tribes?

 

I am attempting to fight my way through a Swedish copy, to no avail. (Much different than Norwegian.)

 

Any case, there are two schools, the old school that states the battle took three days or the new school that maintains less than one day and a few hours at that. What I'm getting as I wade through is that this book advocates the latter approach.

[Neos Dionysos]

Has anyone read ''The Battle that Stopped Rome'' covering Varus' defeat at the hands of Arminius and the German tribes?

 

I am attempting to fight my way through a Swedish copy, to no avail. (Much different than Norwegian.)

 

Any case, there are two schools, the old school that states the battle took three days or the new school that maintains less than one day and a few hours at that. What I'm getting as I wade through is that this book advocates the latter approach.

 

I think there is a review on it if you go through the non-fiction books list on this site. Though I don't think a member reviewed it.

 

 

Couple hours huh? It's possible, but I've always only heard the 3 day deal... course one learns new things everyday so.

 

What evidence are they showing to support the couple hours theory?

[frankq]

If I could read Swedish better I'd know. But I've heard this revisionist scenario before. I'm neutral. Just looking for my facts. And yes, cutting through 20,000 legionaries is no small task.

[Virgil61]

If I could read Swedish better I'd know. But I've heard this revisionist scenario before. I'm neutral. Just looking for my facts. And yes, cutting through 20,000 legionaries is no small task.

 

I wrote a review on it here on UNRV. The chief archaeologist of the site has made statements that disagree with the author stated outcome of two hours and I think even the evidence leans against his analysis. There are some great chapters within the book, but his speculation needs a lot of work. His background focuses on the Germanic tribes of the region and he seems to bend over backwards to try paint them in a positive light going to far as to ignore the fact Varus was a bonehead conducting movement through a narrow passage. In fact he seems to hint, if I remember correctly, that blaming Varus' incompetence is akin to doubting the military prowess of the Germans. One doesn't necessarily lead to the other.

[caldrail]

Has anyone read ''The Battle that Stopped Rome'' covering Varus' defeat at the hands of Arminius and the German tribes?

 

I am attempting to fight my way through a Swedish copy, to no avail. (Much different than Norwegian.)

 

Any case, there are two schools, the old school that states the battle took three days or the new school that maintains less than one day and a few hours at that. What I'm getting as I wade through is that this book advocates the latter approach.

 

Difficult to say isn't it? The ambush took place over a long stretch of forest trail and was done peacemeal to avoid alerting the roman command. The final action, where Arminius trapped the romans between marsh and a prepared defensive (offensive?) wall, would have been over very quickly. I don't think there's enough evidence to categorically say 'it took this long'. It all depends on what you include as the battle itself.

[frankq]

If I could read Swedish better I'd know. But I've heard this revisionist scenario before. I'm neutral. Just looking for my facts. And yes, cutting through 20,000 legionaries is no small task.

 

I wrote a review on it here on UNRV. The chief archaeologist of the site has made statements that disagree with the author stated outcome of two hours and I think even the evidence leans against his analysis. There are some great chapters within the book, but his speculation needs a lot of work. His background focuses on the Germanic tribes of the region and he seems to bend over backwards to try paint them in a positive light going to far as to ignore the fact Varus was a bonehead conducting movement through a narrow passage. In fact he seems to hint, if I remember correctly, that blaming Varus' incompetence is akin to doubting the military prowess of the Germans. One doesn't necessarily lead to the other.

 

Virgil, can you give me the link to what you wrote? I'm having problems and only finally was able to get back onto the site.

 

I had my bro-in-law send me an English translation of the battle. And of the bib which in Wells book is rather paltry. He quotes guys he doesn't put in the bib, too.

 

I just think there is no way you're going to annihilate 20,000 legionaries in a few hours. And he has them marching like robots, or like out of a Marx Bros. comedy.

[Virgil61]

...

Virgil, can you give me the link to what you wrote? I'm having problems and only finally was able to get back onto the site.

 

I had my bro-in-law send me an English translation of the battle. And of the bib which in Wells book is rather paltry. He quotes guys he doesn't put in the bib, too.

 

I just think there is no way you're going to annihilate 20,000 legionaries in a few hours. And he has them marching like robots, or like out of a Marx Bros. comedy.

 

Here's the link. I think the evidence indicates the battle took more than a day as survivors of the initial onslaught left the area and set up some sort of defensive perimeter. There's another site that shows the dispersion pattern of objects that sort of hints at a direction of flight. There's good info in the book but it comes in for a lot of criticism as well.

[frankq]

Virgil, thanks! The livius.org link I already know, in fact it was one of the sites that inspired me to question Wells' book.

 

I've just printed out your review and already in quickly glancing at it I picked this out:

 

Professor Wells makes assumptions that a 25 year-old infantry squad leader today could correct.

 

This too hit me. Even if the Germans had machineguns, you know how long it takes to cut down 20,000 legionaries? Who, moreover, are not trained to march like clones out of Star Wars.

 

Will get back to you and this thread oce I read your review.

[frankq]

Virgil, thanks! The livius.org link I already know, in fact it was one of the sites that inspired me to question Wells' book.

 

I've just printed out your review and already in quickly glancing at it I picked this out:

 

Professor Wells makes assumptions that a 25 year-old infantry squad leader today could correct.

 

This too hit me. Even if the Germans had machineguns, you know how long it takes to cut down 20,000 legionaries? Who, moreover, are not trained to march like clones out of Star Wars.

 

Will get back to you and this thread oce I read your review.

 

Back again. And yes, my reaction was as you pointed out, Wells doesn't go on to give his reasons for a one day massacre, nor, more importantly, does he take the trouble to refute and discredit the traditional 3 day scenario presented by Dio C. Rather than create a seminal work, he's given a bold opinion. And to credit his scenario created German warriors throwing spears in such rapid number that it's at a pace that would be more reminiscent of a cartoon. He quotes other authors who support his opinion, but doesn't even put them in his bibliography. Because it's uncertain what happened, he apparently feels he can set out in new directions without a strong defense.

[Neos Dionysos]

I have a question... how much is known by how many Romans made it out? Was there any significant group, (I know not a large force), but say a group of like 50 lead by a centurion or officer that fought out? Also, I assume there were 3 generals besides Varus, is there information at how long they lasted or if they lead a sizable group for a couple days before being cut down or not? Thanks.

[Primus Pilus]

There's not alot of detailed ancient source material, but Paterculus gives us a little evidence that there were survivors...

 

Book II Chapter 120

Due tribute should be paid to Lucius Asprenas, who was serving as lieutenant under Varus his uncle, and who, backed by the brave and energetic support of the two legions under his command, saved his army from this great disaster, and by a quick descent to the quarters of the army in Lower Germany strengthened the allegiance of the races even on the hither side of the Rhine who were beginning to waver. There are those, however, who believed that, though he had saved the lives of the living, he had appropriated to his own use the property of the dead who were slain with Varus, and that inheritances of the slaughtered army were claimed by him at pleasure. 4The valour of Lucius Caedicius, prefect of the camp, also deserves praise, and of those who, pent up with him at Aliso, were besieged by an immense force of Germans. For, overcoming all their difficulties which want rendered unendurable and the forces of the enemy almost insurmountable, following a design that was carefully considered, and using a vigilance that was ever on the alert, they watched their chance, and with the sword won their way back to their friends. 5From all this it is evident that Varus, who was, it must be confessed, a man of character and of good intentions, lost his life and his magnificent army more through lack of judgement in the commander than of valour in his p307soldiers. 6When the Germans were venting their rage upon their captives, an heroic act was performed by Caldus Caelius, a young man worthy in every way of his long line of ancestors, who, seizing a section of the chain with which he was bound, brought down with such force upon his own head as to cause his instant death, both his brains and his blood gushing from the wound.

 

From Bill Thayer's Lacus Curtius

 

And Tacitus...

Some survivors of the disaster who had escaped from the battle or from captivity, described how this was the spot where the officers fell, how yonder the eagles were captured, where Varus was pierced by his first wound, where too by the stroke of his own ill-starred hand he found for himself death. They pointed out too the raised ground from which Arminius had harangued his army, the number of gibbets for the captives, the pits for the living, and how in his exultation he insulted the standards and eagles.

[Virgil61]

Back again. And yes, my reaction was as you pointed out, Wells doesn't go on to give his reasons for a one day massacre, nor, more importantly, does he take the trouble to refute and discredit the traditional 3 day scenario presented by Dio C. Rather than create a seminal work, he's given a bold opinion. And to credit his scenario created German warriors throwing spears in such rapid number that it's at a pace that would be more reminiscent of a cartoon. He quotes other authors who support his opinion, but doesn't even put them in his bibliography. Because it's uncertain what happened, he apparently feels he can set out in new directions without a strong defense.

 

I think there's more evidence to refute his opinions then there is to support it. The chief archaeologist stated that she thought only around 10,000 men could have occupied the immediate ambush area. So if the army was around 20,000 that would leave a large number surviving the initial onslaught. It's not impossible to speculate on, as far as ancient battlefields go Teutoburg Forest is unique in being the most well-preserved--in fact I don't think any other ancient battlefield comes close. I'm glad you see the same holes in his theory, he seems to have gotten it very wrong.

 

Like you mentioned, they'd need a few machine guns to slaughter 20,000 men in a couple of hours! It's a shame that he chose to speculate so much, there are some very worthwhile chapters in the book.

[frankq]

Indeed, you know what part I found amusing? How he calculates the rate the Germans could chuck spears. Again, I got this Loony Tune image of cartoon warriors hurling away.

 

Your strongest point of all was that he fails to refute the other theories. Or refuses to support his own. The fact that he didn't put into the bib and I'm still searching for the authors he refers to and who support his view I find inadequate and even a dereliction of scholastic duty.

[caldrail]

I think there's more evidence to refute his opinions then there is to support it. The chief archaeologist stated that she thought only around 10,000 men could have occupied the immediate ambush area. So if the army was around 20,000 that would leave a large number surviving the initial onslaught. It's not impossible to speculate on, as far as ancient battlefields go Teutoburg Forest is unique in being the most well-preserved--in fact I don't think any other ancient battlefield comes close. I'm glad you see the same holes in his theory, he seems to have gotten it very wrong.

 

Like you mentioned, they'd need a few machine guns to slaughter 20,000 men in a couple of hours! It's a shame that he chose to speculate so much, there are some very worthwhile chapters in the book.

 

As far as I'm aware, the original battle site, which extended a considerable distance, was deforested centuries ago. A small area has been restored to natural condition in recent years but I'm not sure if thats at the location where the battle took place.

[Germanicus]

I read the book, and all the points so far made about the time frame for the battle, German spear throwing rate etc are probably valid. (Anyone know how long Aquae Sextae took ?)

 

If I were to concentrate on positive elements of the book though, his theories regarding the subsequent separation of Europe between Romantic and Germanic seemed sound, or at least plausible.

 

Another point I found interesting was the information regarding Arminius previous relationship with Varus, Arminius having served in Auxiliary forces and his deliberate deception of the too trusting Varus. While there's no doubt that Varus was not a stellar general, I couldn't help but be left with a certain admiration for Arminius, rather than just contempt of Varus if you take my drift.