Why Latin Died Out?

[Q Valerius Scerio]

I'm sorry Cato, but if you cannot accurately represent what I say, even after clarifying twice, I feel as though this conversation is a dead-end. Good day to you, sir.

[docoflove1974]

Be careful, Cato, when using Greenberg as an example. While he has defined typology as an area of linguistics, his faux-reconstructions have been widely criticized by many, most notably by Lyle Campbell (2001) and especially Roger Lass (1980). He did much good in laying out *tendencies*, particularly with the African languages...but nothing scientific.

Edited February 17, 2006 by docoflove1974

[M. Porcius Cato]

Be careful, Cato, when using Greenberg as an example. While he has defined typology as an area of linguistics, his faux-reconstructions have been widely criticized by many, most notably by Lyle Campbell (2001) and especially Roger Lass (1980). He did much good in laying out *tendencies*, particularly with the African languages...but nothing scientific.

 

Like that old joke: stretch all the linguists of the earth from end to end and they'll never reach a conclusion.

 

Seriously, how do you explain the fact that his linguistic clades map onto the clades identified independently by population genetics?

[docoflove1974]

Heh true enough about linguists.

 

Greenberg makes me queasy, only in the sense that he is all about 'coincidences'...now, it so happens that many of his 'coincidences' and 'correlations' line up well, and have been proven with more 'legitimate' studies, methods, and theories. But it is still dangerous to only work with correlations and coincidences without more scientific methods being employed. No doubt that you need someone to identify a possible match in order to get the research going, though. It's generally accepted by my colleagues that you can start with Greenberg, but you'd better have something else to back it up.

 

I will say this: the Greenbergian correlations having to do with word order and morpho-syntactic constructions, Key-rist, they are damn-near unshakable. Scary.

[Andrew Dalby]

All that is required of the PW hypothesis is that all modern languages descended from a single ancestor language. The alternative hypothesis is that modern languages descended from more than one independently-emerging languages. I don't think this is particularly likely if the language-learning phenotype evolved only once, and the likelihood of random mutations leading to an identical phenotype multiple times is highly unlikely.

I used to think this must be true. By the time I had finished /Language in Danger/, I felt that to say that would have been to make a logical error. If the language phenotype evolved out of nothing, yes, it can hardly have done so more than once -- because all languages share a universal structure) and it is impossible to accept that it evolved without being used. So its first bearers must have spoken the first language, ancestral to all others. But animals do communicate, so in all likelihood the language phenotype evolved gradually out of something simpler. In that scenario, more than one prototype human language might have developed (with mutual influence) in parallel. As I said in that book, in all likelihood Eve was multilingual, like so many of her descendants.

[Virgil61]

...

I used to think this must be true. By the time I had finished /Language in Danger/, I felt that to say that would have been to make a logical error. If the language phenotype evolved out of nothing, yes, it can hardly have done so more than once -- because all languages share a universal structure) and it is impossible to accept that it evolved without being used. So its first bearers must have spoken the first language, ancestral to all others. But animals do communicate, so in all likelihood the language phenotype evolved gradually out of something simpler. In that scenario, more than one prototype human language might have developed (with mutual influence) in parallel. As I said in that book, in all likelihood Eve was multilingual, like so many of her descendants.

 

Looks like an interesting read (cheap plug offered up). I'm curious about a couple of 'dying' languages with special interest to those of us who are interested in Roman history, perhaps they aren't your area but I'll ask anyway.

 

I'm assuming much of the population may be descendents of those who lived under Roman rule and fled to Wales during the Saxon incursions, if true, is there a Latin influence or loan words in the Welsh language and do you think efforts to reinvigorate it will be successful?

 

Something that fascinates me is the fact that Greek is still spoken in two small areas of Italy (Griko ), remnants of the scores of Greek settlers in southern Italy from the ancient era. The last speakers number maybe in the low tens of thousands and apparently speak a language that may more closely related to old Greek. Are you aware of this population and, though the prospects for survival seem bleak to me, what's you take on it?

Edited February 19, 2006 by Virgil61

[Andrew Dalby]

I'm assuming much of the population may be descendents of those who lived under Roman rule and fled to Wales during the Saxon incursions, if true, is there a Latin influence or loan words in the Welsh language and do you think efforts to reinvigorate it will be successful?

 

My daughter went to university in Wales, and at the graduation ceremony everything was in Welsh first, in English second. The language still has half a million speakers and a great deal of national pride going for it. Its problem is that it is relatively little spoken in Cardiff (the capital). But a lot of children are still learning it. That's the crucial feature, probably. Not under immediate threat, but, let's face it, all languages except English are under long term threat.

 

Something that fascinates me is the fact that Greek is still spoken in two small areas of Italy (Griko ), remnants of the scores of Greek settlers in southern Italy from the ancient era. The last speakers number maybe in the low tens of thousands and apparently speak a language that may more closely related to old Greek. Are you aware of this population and, though the prospects for survival seem bleak to me, what's you take on it?

 

Thanks very much for the link, Virgil. All such small rural minority languages are very seriously threatened. Parents want their children to learn the national language and English, and local languages get squeezed out.

 

Gerhard Rohlfs, whose work is cited by docoflove elsewhere on this forum, put a great deal of work into recording this Greek language of southern Italy.

[Ludovicus]

If you want to see how Latin evolved into the Romance Languages (French, Italian, Catalan, Sardinian, Portuguese, Romanian, etc.) one of the best resources for the lay person is Mario Pei's book "Latin and the Romance Languages." This work has long been out of print but many libraries in the US still have it on loan.

 

Pei's book is replete with sample texts which show the slow evolution from popular Latin to the various Latin derived languages. French appeared first in the 9th century with the Oaths of Strasburg. Italian was late in developing because of the historic prestige of Latin.

[docoflove1974]

Pei's book is replete with sample texts which show the slow evolution from popular Latin to the various Latin derived languages. French appeared first in the 9th century with the Oaths of Strasburg. Italian was late in developing because of the historic prestige of Latin.

 

Italian wasn't late in developing...just late in being recorded. There's no reason to think that the entire peninsula kept with Latin in their day-to-day speaking while everyone else had moved on to local Romance. Also: I believe that the Oaths of Strasburg have now been seen as 'questionable', in the sense that it seems that they are fakes...10th or 11th century fakes, if I recall correctly, but not of 9th century. Let me look through my files and notes, just to make sure.

[Ludovicus]

Pei's book is replete with sample texts which show the slow evolution from popular Latin to the various Latin derived languages. French appeared first in the 9th century with the Oaths of Strasburg. Italian was late in developing because of the historic prestige of Latin.

 

Italian wasn't late in developing...just late in being recorded. There's no reason to think that the entire peninsula kept with Latin in their day-to-day speaking while everyone else had moved on to local Romance. Also: I believe that the Oaths of Strasburg have now been seen as 'questionable', in the sense that it seems that they are fakes...10th or 11th century fakes, if I recall correctly, but not of 9th century. Let me look through my files and notes, just to make sure.

 

 

I stand corrected. Spoken Italian developed as quickly or even more quickly (due to the fractured political scene in Italy) as other Romance languagesd. It was the recorded language that continued to feel the pull of Latin for so long. Thank you for pointing this out.

[Andrew Dalby]

Also: I believe that the Oaths of Strasburg have now been seen as 'questionable', in the sense that it seems that they are fakes...10th or 11th century fakes, if I recall correctly, but not of 9th century. Let me look through my files and notes, just to make sure.

 

I don't see how this can be. The oaths are recorded in Nithard's /History of the Sons of Louis the Pious/. Lauer, editor of the 1926 edition, aims to show in his introduction that Nithard was a contemporary of the events, gradually compiling the book from 841 on. Even if Lauer is wrong here, the only important manuscript of the /History/ (Paris BN 9768) is dated to the end of the 9th century, so the oaths were on record by that time. They can't be 10th/11th century fakes.

[docoflove1974]

Also: I believe that the Oaths of Strasburg have now been seen as 'questionable', in the sense that it seems that they are fakes...10th or 11th century fakes, if I recall correctly, but not of 9th century. Let me look through my files and notes, just to make sure.

 

I take this back...mostly because I can't find my notes...they're buried in boxes of books under the house, and I don't really have the time to sift through it. So, ignore said comment. Sorry about that.