SPQR

[M. Porcius Cato]

Who are "the people"? It seems to expand over time in every society where "the people" have some legal authority. I think it would be mistake to take a narrow meaning at an early age (e.g., those eligible to fight in militias) as the meaning at every age (e.g., after the "struggle of the orders").

 

Come to think of it, the populations denoted by all the letters--S, P, and R--changed over history. "The senate" was opened to non-patricians and later non-Italians. "The people" in Rome who could vote and run for office changed over time. And even who a "Roman" was was expanded until Roman citizenship was given to people who had never even set foot in Italy.

 

Most broadly, however, going back to "original meaning" via etymology can be quite misleading. The standard example from Logic 101 is "sincere." Originally, it meant "without wax", and it referred to sculptures that were all marble and didn't have any wax parts to fill in the mistakes of the sculptor. But to say, "Oh, well of course President Clinton was sincere when he said he didn't have sex with that woman Ms. Lewinsky--there wasn't a single part of him made of wax!" would be disingenuous at best.

[Silentium]

Being neither a hardcore military buff nor an expert in Latin, the following was new to me. If it's not new to you, then peachy.

 

But in reading Mackay's _Ancient Rome _, I did read one thing I at least hadn't come across before.

 

 

SPQR - Senatus populusque romana. Usually translated as "The Senate and the People of Rome." The standard of Republic government.

 

However, Mackay claims populus doesn't really mean "people." In the oldest definitions, it meant "army." Or more specifically, the people assembled as the army, under the division of the various socio-economic classes that constituted the army in its political role - i.e., the Centuriate Assembly. The latin verb populari means "to plunder," and the noun derives from the verb.

 

Thus SPQR wouldn't mean "The Senate and the People of Rome" - it would really mean "The Senate and the Army of Rome" or perhaps more accurately "The Senate and the Centuriate Assembly of Rome."

Yes, no doubt that the first meaning of Senatus Populusque Romanus had that connotation =)

 

Populus probably derived from the Etruscan word *puple, literally

Edited February 17, 2006 by Silentium

[Ursus]

Interesting ....

[caldrail]

However, Mackay claims populus doesn't really mean "people." In the oldest definitions, it meant "army." Or more specifically, the people assembled as the army, under the division of the various socio-economic classes that constituted the army in its political role - i.e., the Centuriate Assembly. The latin verb populari means "to plunder," and the noun derives from the verb.

 

Thus SPQR wouldn't mean "The Senate and the People of Rome" - it would really mean "The Senate and the Army of Rome" or perhaps more accurately "The Senate and the Centuriate Assembly of Rome."

 

Rome never had an organised army in its earliest days, and the landowners assembled for campaigning when required because they needed to protect their homes. Military experience was a defining qualification for Romans (possibly less in later years as most seemed to try and avoid by then) so you couldn't really hold your head up until you too had fought for Rome. I don't its necessary to define exactly what was meant by this phrase, the Romans wouldn't and never needed to.

[Guest podlesni]

OK...so SPQR is NOT Senatus Populusque RomanA but Senatus Populusque RomanUS. If people want to talk about something like this, you should take Latin first. (Romani, -us is a 2nd declension noun and since it is ...of Rome, the noun goes into the genitive case, which is Romanus.) Furthermore, it is translated as The Senate and the People of Rome is almost all instances. Granted, who the people of Rome were is a hazy question, but that is the most accepted translation.

 

SPQR = Senatus Populusque Romanus

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

OK...so SPQR is NOT Senatus Populusque RomanA but Senatus Populusque RomanUS. If people want to talk about something like this, you should take Latin first. (Romani, -us is a 2nd declension noun and since it is ...of Rome, the noun goes into the genitive case, which is Romanus.) Furthermore, it is translated as The Senate and the People of Rome is almost all instances. Granted, who the people of Rome were is a hazy question, but that is the most accepted translation.

 

SPQR = Senatus Populusque Romanus

 

Please tone down a bit, its not like everyone learned Latin, the message is already understood.

By the way, in the process of trying to correct people, even you got it wrong. Sure it's second declension, but you declined it wrong, also it's not The Roman Senate and of the Peopleits just The Senate and the Roman People(even that phrase can differentiate easily into The Roman Senate and the Roman People or simply The Roman Senate and People) . The right way to decline is :

 

Romanus, -i., masculine or Romanus, -a, -um (adj. form)

 

Singular/Plural

Romanus/Romani

Romani/Romanorum

Romano/Romanis

Romanum/Romanos

Romano/Romanis

Edited February 14, 2006 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[Primus Pilus]

OK...so SPQR is NOT Senatus Populusque RomanA but Senatus Populusque RomanUS. If people want to talk about something like this, you should take Latin first. (Romani, -us is a 2nd declension noun and since it is ...of Rome, the noun goes into the genitive case, which is Romanus.) Furthermore, it is translated as The Senate and the People of Rome is almost all instances. Granted, who the people of Rome were is a hazy question, but that is the most accepted translation.

 

SPQR = Senatus Populusque Romanus

 

Thank you for pointing out the obvious, but the question in this case is not whether the R in SPQR is an abbreviation for Romanus or Romana but the true context of the term Populusque.

 

I haven't read Mackey's book so I can't be sure if he used Romana or Romanus or if this was simply a mistake by the original poster, but a professor of Mackey's credentials should at least be given the courtesy of listening to the argument.

[caldrail]

I think trying to understand something by intense analysis of the finer points of latin isn't going to solve it. Understanding what it really meant to romans means understanding roman minds and circumstances, which is what I tried to do in my previous answer. Latin is a language with complex grammar, and unless you're born to it the nuances tend to be lost. I doubt ordinary romans ever spoke or wrote correct grammar 100% of the time, which is one reason why so many roman kids got whacked by their teachers.

[sullafelix]

All I know is that in a drunken frenzy after receiving my degree results I got SPQR tattooed on my ankle. Looks good though..I am thinking of having something else on my other ankle suggestions on a postcard please, nothing too long it does hurt a lot!