SPQR

[Ursus]

Being neither a hardcore military buff nor an expert in Latin, the following was new to me. If it's not new to you, then peachy.

 

But in reading Mackay's _Ancient Rome _, I did read one thing I at least hadn't come across before.

 

 

SPQR - Senatus populusque romana. Usually translated as "The Senate and the People of Rome." The standard of Republic government.

 

However, Mackay claims populus doesn't really mean "people." In the oldest definitions, it meant "army." Or more specifically, the people assembled as the army, under the division of the various socio-economic classes that constituted the army in its political role - i.e., the Centuriate Assembly. The latin verb populari means "to plunder," and the noun derives from the verb.

 

Thus SPQR wouldn't mean "The Senate and the People of Rome" - it would really mean "The Senate and the Army of Rome" or perhaps more accurately "The Senate and the Centuriate Assembly of Rome."

 

Kind of puts a different spin on the old Republican formula. The People were the People only insofar as they were part of the old citizen's militia.

[Neos Dionysos]

Kind of puts a different spin on the old Republican formula. The People were the People only insofar as they were part of the old citizen's militia.

 

Hell yes it does! Nice post Ursus, I've never come across that... hmmm... makes the Republic look more what it did and was, rather than what some may claim it to be by name.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

My Latin teacher privately told me about this, about how much of a misconception it was.However during the early Republic, the people was the army. The citizens were also soldiers were they not. So really, saying the

Roman Senate and People still would have had the same meaning in the early 'Republic.' But of course, it changed with Marius.

 

By the way, its ok to say the Senate and People of Rome, but in literal text, Romana is an adjective, so you can't really say Rome as a noun in SPQR, unless it was idiomatic.

[Sextus Roscius]

I agree with Flavius on this one, it really has the same meaning. Things stayed the same even though the marian reforms occured. Just like the "Royal Marines" and such in Britian don't actualy serve the queen, though they used to. The name stays on, just not the meaning.

[Ursus]

.However during the early Republic, the people was the army. The citizens were also soldiers were they not.

 

Yes, but "the people" were the people only insofar as they were part of the regimented military machine.

 

 

In other words, the connotation of "the people" is not the people in an abstract or idealistic republican sense. The sense is "the people are the soldiers of the Senate, let's send them out to plunder."

 

SPQR - The Roman Senate and its plundering army!

 

See what I'm getting at?

[Sextus Roscius]

I see what your getting at, but I beleive what you portray SPQR to mean, is entirely different from what the Romans thought it meant, and when it comes to studing other cultures, it's far more important to think about things the way they thought about it, than take things as their literal definition.

 

Hope that made sense...

[P.Clodius]

When did this arrise, probably after the Servian constitution? Very interesting though, "The Senate of Rome and its Plundering Rabble", hahaha. In the Latin wars and subsequently the conquest of Italy this title makes sense...hehehe

[Pantagathus]

Yes, but "the people" were the people only insofar as they were part of the regimented military machine.

 

But weren't voting rights tied to military classification on the census level?

[P.Clodius]

But weren't voting rights tied to military classification on the census level?

Absolutely, this was determined in the Servian constitution.

[Pantagathus]

But weren't voting rights tied to military classification on the census level?

Absolutely, this was determined in the Servian constitution.

 

Even in early America, the people who could vote were "The People" at the fundamental level...

[Primus Pilus]

But weren't voting rights tied to military classification on the census level?

Absolutely, this was determined in the Servian constitution.

 

Even in early America, the people who could vote were "The People" at the fundamental level...

 

But hence the US electorate college designed to protect the 'masses' from their own stupidity.

[Tobias]

So to the end being discussed, what does the term res publica (republic) mean? Does it mean the government of the people, or the government of the army?

[P.Clodius]

what does the term res publica (republic) mean?

Literally, Public Thing

[Ursus]

So to the end being discussed, what does the term res publica (republic) mean? Does it mean the government of the people, or the government of the army?

 

 

I'm tempted to say it initially meant the latter.

 

The very nature of the Centuriate Assembly suggests Roman civilization viewed itself in terms of an armed camp, and citizens were prized mostly to the extent they could contribute to military efforts. The central Roman virtue - virtu, manliness, - is usually translated as strength and bravery in battle.

 

There are parallels in other Indo-European cultures. In some Germanic tribes, if one threw down one's shield and cowardly ran away in battle, they were no longer entitled to sit on the popular assemblies of the tribe. Clearly the true mark of an individual was his capacity to wage war for the community.

 

The Struggle of the Orders and the various initiatives of the Plebians (the grunts of the citizens' militia) gave way to a broader concept of "the people" and "The Republic." In fact, the central weapon of the Plebian struggles was their simple refusal not to go to war for the community unless they got their way.

[Neos Dionysos]

So to the end being discussed, what does the term res publica (republic) mean? Does it mean the government of the people, or the government of the army?

 

 

I'm tempted to say it initially meant the latter...

 

 

There are parallels in other Indo-European cultures. In some Germanic tribes, if one threw down one's shield and cowardly ran away in battle, they were no longer entitled to sit on the popular assemblies of the tribe. Clearly the true mark of an individual was his capacity to wage war for the community.

 

 

 

Parallels in Bronze Age cultures as well and into Hellenic times as in the way of the Macedonians...