Honorius Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Guys jsut the other day i was thinking on how the chain worked and then i got onto the questions as to "what happened to the great chain the gaurded the golden horn?"... does it lie at the bottom of the golden horn? or did the ottoman sultans continue to use it after their capture of Constantinople? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 (edited) I would daresay that it was either destroyed, and has long rusted away on the bottom of the harbour, or it was merely broken, and was recovered and melted down to forge a new chain, or weaponry etc. I will look into what happened to it though - it's an interesting thought. Edited January 25, 2006 by Tobias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favonius Cornelius Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Could someone explain the history and use of this chain please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 (edited) Seems the Venicians broke it in 1203 when they were assaulting the city during the Crusades. My guess is that it probably went to the bottom because everybody's attention was on fighting. However, it appears that one was in place again during the Ottoman assault; but they went around it. Anybody who has served on a steel naval ship can tell you that there was probably an incredible amount of upkeep to be performed on that iron chain since it stretched a salt water harbor. I have no idea what they would have used for preservation but I know that modern steel coated with petrolium products or paint still has to be replaced relatively frequently in a salt water environment... Edited January 25, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 (edited) Guys jsut the other day i was thinking on how the chain worked and then i got onto the questions as to "what happened to the great chain the gaurded the golden horn?"... does it lie at the bottom of the golden horn? or did the ottoman sultans continue to use it after their capture of Constantinople? You will be surprised but that chain wasn`t so "great". It was usual practice in Medieval world to use such things in order to guard the harbours. For exemple, such chain was in Dalmatian city Zara, captured by crusaders in 1202. Could someone explain the history and use of this chain please? Byzantines used that chain against Arabian fleet in 717-718, in 821 - against Thomas the Slav, in 969 - against Russians, in 1203 - against crusaders and in 1453 - against Ottomans. Edited January 25, 2006 by Philhellene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favonius Cornelius Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Byzantines used that chain against Arabian fleet in 717-718, in 821 - against Thomas the Slav, in 969 - against Russians, in 1203 - against crusaders and in 1453 - against Ottomans. How exactly do you use it? Does it just span the harbor preventing passage of ships? Would seem a simple thing to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Does it just span the harbor preventing passage of ships? Yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarr Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Does it just span the harbor preventing passage of ships? Yeah. Well, I guess cutting it would be a real problem, especially if they used thick links to forge the chain. Modern equipment would do the job fine but for the ancient armies seeking to cross a chain under water, forget it ! If they could bring enough mass to it, they could attempt to break it but may also run the risk of cracking their hulls. I'm sure some would have tried and probably sank pretty fast, if you had spiky protuberances or something like that from the chain that would pierce a ship's hull. Another way I think a chain can be used is to have several of your own ships push the chain forward, catching the enemy by surprise as they seek to avoid contact with the chain and explose their flanks to attack. Everybody always tries to catch the enemy broadside to gain the upper hand and then shoot the hell out of her with arrows flaming with grease cloth on fire. That, and a few lobbed wooden barrels of oil lobbed on deck soon after the arrows land would be enough to set decks ablaze and as they surface from below to escape the smoke, you cut them down. Seems like most of the ancient battle tactics were simple and pretty brutal, as little or no quarter was given in battle. People like to imagine a chivalric battle fought with rules. However, in real battles, it was kill or be killed and any means was allowed, as long as the end result was victory. To the victor lay not only the spoils but also all the glories of war and its horrors. Well, a triumph in Rome would wash away the guilt of spilling your enemy's blood, as the triumphal procession was a purification rite. The Romans were not great on sea like the Phoenicians and other great sea faring nations like Greece. Athens and its ships dominated the Aegean for centuries. The pirates also had their own sway over the Mediterannean spawning great pirate kings and others who were a thorn in Rome's flesh as they willingly made treaties with Rome's enemies for a fee. They were also treacherous and as Spartacus found out, could be re-sold to the highest bidder. I wonder if there are some articles or links on further information on the great chain, as I find the concept quite fascinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favonius Cornelius Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 If I were an admiral facing this thing, I'd take a bireme or something, fill it with rocks to increase its mass, then launch forward with three ships, two of which are attached to the 'ram' ship to give it additional impetus and the center with a skeleton crew of strong backed men. When too close the two cut their lines and the ram ship keeps plunging forward. The ram ship would be fashioned with a metal bolted reinforced front prow area designed to catch the chain in place so that as much force as possible could be centered on it. Put the men in back, for their protection and counterbalance for the heavy front. If it would all work, my prediction would be it breaks at the point of its attachment at either end. Think it would work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorius Posted January 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 If I were an admiral facing this thing, I'd take a bireme or something, fill it with rocks to increase its mass, then launch forward with three ships, two of which are attached to the 'ram' ship to give it additional impetus and the center with a skeleton crew of strong backed men. When too close the two cut their lines and the ram ship keeps plunging forward. The ram ship would be fashioned with a metal bolted reinforced front prow area designed to catch the chain in place so that as much force as possible could be centered on it. Put the men in back, for their protection and counterbalance for the heavy front. If it would all work, my prediction would be it breaks at the point of its attachment at either end. Think it would work? not a bad idea favonius it would probably work. but if not you could simply take the primarily Genoan settlement of Galata on the other side of the horn. there was a single tower there that held one side of the chain. if you captured the lightly defended tower you could lower the chain... a problem with Constantinople is that the tower was never really heavily defended.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted January 29, 2006 Report Share Posted January 29, 2006 As well, i believe the effectiveness of the chain probably worked in tandem with Byzantine naval domination; as long as they had a strong navy to support a defence of the harbour, the Chain was a precautionary method and a strong barrier, as the chain could be protected from such attacks as yours Favonius by the navy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philhellene Posted February 9, 2006 Report Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) As well, i believe the effectiveness of the chain probably worked in tandem with Byzantine naval domination; as long as they had a strong navy to support a defence of the harbour, the Chain was a precautionary method and a strong barrier, as the chain could be protected from such attacks as yours Favonius by the navy. This chain was useful only when the Byzantines didn`t have a strong navy. It was the last way to protect the harbour. Edited February 9, 2006 by Philhellene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 This chain was useful only when the Byzantines didn`t have a strong navy. It was the last way to protect the harbour. Obviously. What i'm saying is that such attacks as Favonius mentioned above could be easily thwarted before they reached the chain or at the chain if the Byzantines dominated the waves. It made it a great precautionary/psychological barrier against the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I have a map of Constantinopole/Istanbul as my desktop that shows another chain from the starting point of the Golden Horn chain to the Tower of Leander and then to Skudari (Chrisopolis) on the asian side. It sais "Barrier chain (1433)" I do not know anything about it. I think that these chains were very effective, other wise what was the point of draging a fleet over land if you can just break the chain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I wonder if anyone has ever attempted a reconstruction of a chain to see how effective it really was. Just because no one bothered to take it down doesn't mean it worked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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