New Barbarian Kingdoms

[Neos Dionysos]

I'd like to begin a discussion on the kingdoms which would come to replace and rule the land once part of the Western Roman Empire since there seem to be so few.

 

To get the discussion going, we can begin by discussing the Franks in Gaul and Clovis... and of the Goths in Spain and Italy with attention to Theodoric the Great.

 

On a side note, does anyone have any suggestions for books or source materials on this period, (400-600 AD), and on this particular kingdoms and people? Thanks.

[Honorius]

does this also include the Vandals in north africa? and gaiseric (sp?)

 

good idea though neos

[Neos Dionysos]

does this also include the Vandals in north africa? and gaiseric (sp?)

 

good idea though neos

 

Yes it does... sorry not sure how I forgot to mention them in the initial group...

 

Of course other groups include the Lombards, Burgandians and Alemmeni(?).

[Honorius]

Suevi?

 

also does it include the celts of britain and the saxons? or did u mean only on mainland europe

 

Might it include the Byzantines? coz they were like a successor state in a way?

 

oh btw sorry for killing ur suggestion

[Neos Dionysos]

Hahaha... no it's fine. This is exactly what I'd like to do... bring in the other Germanic or barbarian, (from Roman view), peoples which were of the period and this is the perfect forum as well. The Byzantines are of course acceptable as well as Britian and the like.

 

Perhaps I'll start off with one group just to post info etc. and we can all start from there and focus on that or also throw in the others as well, maybe turn this into a good descriptions/review of the peoples in question.

[Neos Dionysos]

The Goths... where did they come from and why did they suddenly appear on Rome's border only to quickly arrive and ravage the land. Only a spectacular campaign led by Gallenius, (though the Senate gave credit to Claudius II Gothicus), severly weakened and broke the Goths back, forcing them back over the Danube and forcing them to recover. So effective was the counter-campaign that the Goths were unable to pose a serious threat until more than a century later. Now, I'd like us to investigate just what caused this people to suddenly appear on the warpath and the situation in Rome as this was the first among many groups they would encounter in the ensuing centuries.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Perhaps the Huns were the problems. My reason for saying that is because a History Channel documentary I watched on Barbarians: The Goths which stated one good reason was the Hunnic brutal invasion. Also, when the Goths were allowed into Roman Empire, the Roman natives didn't take well with the Gothic prescence. So there you've got cultural discrimination which the Goths must have felt estranged. Now when the Goths were incorporated into the army, they were also discriminated, example during one battle, 10,000 Goths died fighting for Rome as cannon fodder and it was in that battle whom was Alaric.

Yet my facts may be stupendously wrong since I might be mixing up events

far off.

[Neos Dionysos]

Perhaps the Huns were the problems. My reason for saying that is because a History Channel documentary I watched on Barbarians: The Goths which stated one good reason was the Hunnic brutal invasion. Also, when the Goths were allowed into Roman Empire, the Roman natives didn't take well with the Gothic prescence. So there you've got cultural discrimination which the Goths must have felt estranged. Now when the Goths were incorporated into the army, they were also discriminated, example during one battle, 10,000 Goths died fighting for Rome as cannon fodder and it was in that battle whom was Alaric.

Yet my facts may be stupendously wrong since I might be mixing up events

far off.

 

 

Actually Flavius, you aren;t that far off at all. You are right about all of those facts, just you omitted the extra crucial info... (not your fault).

 

The Huns, were a key problem to the Goths coming into Roman lands, but they appeared around the Black Sea area in the early 4th century, my question though is why did they come in middle to late 3rd century?

 

But you are very correct about the way the Goths were treated by Romans of all social classes, in fact during the age of Valens, the term 'Goths' had become a degragatory term and associated with slaves and the worst of the worst. If you look here I go into a lot of detail on this event. Page 6 of this Topic The Goths that were upset during Theodosius' reign because Alaric felt they were used as cannon fodder during the battle of the Frigidus River in 394AD. The major reason though for the revolt was because Alaric felt he deserved to be rewarded with a high command/position within the Roman Government and Military but was not given it and so led the revolt against Rome. Now while this was a bad thing, he was kept in check by his old friend and faithful Roman to the Theodosius dynasty Stilicho who was a Vandal. After defeating Alaric a handful of times, but allowing Alaric to escape, (it's debatable if he really LET him get away or if it was just chance), but the Roman aristocracy and the Emperor Honorius felt him to be a traitor and not to be trusted and he along with other members of the Imperial Family had him executed. This, followed by a mass attack on Barbarian troops throughout the West caused many, (who were loyal to Rome), turn to Alaric since they had no where else to go. Alaric is said to have recieved 30,000 men because of this and used those to sack Rome in 410. My question though is what caused the Goths to initally involve themselves in Rome. Was it for simply conquest and wealth? A search for a new home? Being driven from thier old lands? A climate change? This is the question I pose.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Perhaps the Huns were the problems. My reason for saying that is because a History Channel documentary I watched on Barbarians: The Goths which stated one good reason was the Hunnic brutal invasion. Also, when the Goths were allowed into Roman Empire, the Roman natives didn't take well with the Gothic prescence. So there you've got cultural discrimination which the Goths must have felt estranged. Now when the Goths were incorporated into the army, they were also discriminated, example during one battle, 10,000 Goths died fighting for Rome as cannon fodder and it was in that battle whom was Alaric.

Yet my facts may be stupendously wrong since I might be mixing up events

far off.

 

 

Actually Flavius, you aren;t that far off at all. You are right about all of those facts, just you omitted the extra crucial info... (not your fault).

 

The Huns, were a key problem to the Goths coming into Roman lands, but they appeared around the Black Sea area in the early 4th century, my question though is why did they come in middle to late 3rd century?

 

But you are very correct about the way the Goths were treated by Romans of all social classes, in fact during the age of Valens, the term 'Goths' had become a degragatory term and associated with slaves and the worst of the worst. If you look here I go into a lot of detail on this event. Page 6 of this Topic The Goths that were upset during Theodosius' reign because Alaric felt they were used as cannon fodder during the battle of the Frigidus River in 394AD. The major reason though for the revolt was because Alaric felt he deserved to be rewarded with a high command/position within the Roman Government and Military but was not given it and so led the revolt against Rome. Now while this was a bad thing, he was kept in check by his old friend and faithful Roman to the Theodosius dynasty Stilicho who was a Vandal. After defeating Alaric a handful of times, but allowing Alaric to escape, (it's debatable if he really LET him get away or if it was just chance), but the Roman aristocracy and the Emperor Honorius felt him to be a traitor and not to be trusted and he along with other members of the Imperial Family had him executed. This, followed by a mass attack on Barbarian troops throughout the West caused many, (who were loyal to Rome), turn to Alaric since they had no where else to go. Alaric is said to have recieved 30,000 men because of this and used those to sack Rome in 410. My question though is what caused the Goths to initally involve themselves in Rome. Was it for simply conquest and wealth? A search for a new home? Being driven from thier old lands? A climate change? This is the question I pose.

 

Hmm, I hate it when documentaries never go deeply into the motives of such characcters. But thanks for telling this, I never knew about that segment.

 

If what you say about Alaric is true, then I believe the Gothic incursion into Italia was really by one man, Alaric. As a common theme, why not follow someone who you admire and guarantee you a chance of booty. So if I had an answer, I'd stick with the old fashion glory/wealth even though it might be a combination of other attributes.

[Honorius]

i would think searching for a new home....Maybe overpopulation is the reason?

[Neos Dionysos]

i would think searching for a new home....

 

I tend to agree with that, and the reason being was the climatic changes which occur every 500 or so years thus forcing them to move south and upon hearing, from before or now of the great rich and wealthy land of Rome they felt this should be thier new home.

[Philhellene]

On a side note, does anyone have any suggestions for books or source materials on this period, (400-600 AD), and on this particular kingdoms and people? Thanks.

 

Procopius, "Wars", books III-VII.

Agathius, "History of Justinian`s reign", books I-II.

Gregorius of Tours, "History of Francs"

Isidorus, "History of Goths, Suebes and Vandals"

Jordanes, "Getica"

Edited January 14, 2006 by Philhellene

[Moonlapse]

The Huns, were a key problem to the Goths coming into Roman lands, but they appeared around the Black Sea area in the early 4th century, my question though is why did they come in middle to late 3rd century?

 

The Han dynasty in China expanded their borders in the early 3rd century.

 

Related discussion: http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2624

[Tobias]

I've been thinking of putting together an article for UNRV one day on this topic; briefly outlining the dominions that would come to replace the Roman Empire. It's an area i take keen interest in - especially researching the Roman influences on these successor states.

[Neos Dionysos]

I've been thinking of putting together an article for UNRV one day on this topic; briefly outlining the dominions that would come to replace the Roman Empire. It's an area i take keen interest in - especially researching the Roman influences on these successor states.

 

 

I'd love to assist you in this endevour if you do, do it.