Ursus Posted August 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Excellent posts, Jasmina. You're a welcome addition to this forum! The only thing I can add to this is that link between Mary and Isis is strongest in the respective iconography of the cults. Icons of Mary and the Christ Child bear something in common with the cultic depictions of Isis and Horus. One is tempted to say the latter influenced the former. I suppose there is no direct evidence, but consider that many temples to Isis were converted into shrines for the Virgin. Also, both cults seem to appeal to women strongly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasminia Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Excellent posts, Jasmina. You're a welcome addition to this forum! The only thing I can add to this is that link between Mary and Isis is strongest in the respective iconography of the cults. Icons of Mary and the Christ Child bear something in common with the cultic depictions of Isis and Horus. One is tempted to say the latter influenced the former. I suppose there is no direct evidence, but consider that many temples to Isis were converted into shrines for the Virgin. Also, both cults seem to appeal to women strongly. Thank you, Ursus! About direct evidence, I came across this in the Anthropology of Religion book cited in my last post: "And in the church of Saint Germain in Paris, a black image of the Egyptian goddess Isis was displayed as the Madonna until 1514." (157) The text unfortunately does not cite its source for that statement, but it's a lead for further investigation. I've also read (purportedly) definitive accounts of early Black Madonna statues as converted Isis statues as well as Isis shrines throughout Europe being transformed to Marian worship sites (either built above, or simply assumed with Isis and Egyptian motifs removed or modified). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callaecus Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 I suppose there is no direct evidence, but consider that many temples to Isis were converted into shrines for the Virgin. Also, both cults seem to appeal to women strongly. The medieval cathedral of Braga, in Portugal, which is dedicated to the Virgin, was built on top a temple of Isis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasminia Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Though I'd revitalize this thread because I have recently successfully defended my thesis entitled "Roman Isis and the Pendulum of Religious Tolerance in the Empire". Posted for your enjoyment at http://www.jazzhaven.com/thesis/ Ciao ciao tutti! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasminia Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 I suppose there is no direct evidence, but consider that many temples to Isis were converted into shrines for the Virgin. Also, both cults seem to appeal to women strongly. The medieval cathedral of Braga, in Portugal, which is dedicated to the Virgin, was built on top a temple of Isis. I know replies are late in coming, but better late than never, neh? It's shocking how many churches and cathedrals dedicated to the Virgin are built atop previous temples to Isis in Rome. The most glaring example of this is Santa Maria Maggiore (the only Gothic cathedral in Rome), which is across the street from the Pantheon. The Iseum Campense is underneath that and quite a bit of surrounding (modern) blocks. 4 of the 8 ancient Egyptian obelisks (of Egyptian antiquity, not Roman remakes) that stand in Rome today used to adorn this Iseum. Also, an Italian book suggested that even the Duomo in Siena was built on top of a temple or shrine to Isis. Jasmine, she who has emerged from the other side of the Atlantic with her verb in her mouth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted July 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Though I'd revitalize this thread because I have recently successfully defended my thesis entitled "Roman Isis and the Pendulum of Religious Tolerance in the Empire". Posted for your enjoyment at http://www.jazzhaven.com/thesis/ Ciao ciao tutti! I greatly enjoyed the thesis, Jasminia. Congratulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Though I'd revitalize this thread because I have recently successfully defended my thesis entitled "Roman Isis and the Pendulum of Religious Tolerance in the Empire". Posted for your enjoyment at http://www.jazzhaven.com/thesis/ Ciao ciao tutti! I greatly enjoyed the thesis, Jasminia. Congratulations. Salve Jasmina et congratulatus sum. Of course I totally agree with Ursus on both counts. Gratiam habeo for linking us to such nice tertiary source; an essential addition to our Favorites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Salve Jasmina. Even if didn't find Caius Suetonius Tranquillus within your bibliography, it's clear to me you rely on him (at least indirectly) when you wrote on Tiberius and specially Augustus. I found two additional quotations on Isis in De Vitae Caesarum: Here comes Vita Othonis, cp. XII, sec. I: ... sacra etiam Isidis saepe in lintea religiosaque veste propalam celebrasse. "... also that he used to celebrate the rites of Isis publicly in the linen garment prescribed by the cult". And here comes Vita Domitiani, cp. I, sec. II: ... sed irrumpentibus adversariis et ardente templo apud aedituum clam pernoctavit, ac mane Isiaci celatus habitu interque sacrificulos variae1 superstitionis cum se trans Tiberim ad condiscipuli sui matrem comite uno contulisset, ita latuit, ut scrutantibus qui vestigia subsecuti erant, deprehendi non potuerit "...when the enemy forced an entrance and the temple was fired, he hid during the night with the guardian of the shrine, and in the morning, disguised in the garb of a follower of Isis and mingling with the priests of that fickle superstition, he went across the Tiber with a single companion to the mother of one of his school-fellows". It seems Suetonius was no fan of Isis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 It's shocking how many churches and cathedrals dedicated to the Virgin are built atop previous temples to Isis in Rome. The most glaring example of this is Santa Maria Maggiore (the only Gothic cathedral in Rome), which is across the street from the Pantheon. The Iseum Campense is underneath that and quite a bit of surrounding (modern) blocks. 4 of the 8 ancient Egyptian obelisks (of Egyptian antiquity, not Roman remakes) that stand in Rome today used to adorn this Iseum. Jasmine, I was in Rome last March and stayed near Santa Maria Maggiore on the Esquiline Hill. There is an obelisk at the front and back of the basilica, which is huge. However, I was under the impression that it had been built over a temple to the Magna Mater, not Isis. I do not know if I read that at the actual church or in a guide book... I do have a great guide to archaeology in Rome, so maybe it was that book. Do you have any sources about this? I might've gotten the wrong info, so want to know the truth! However, Isis had a temple on the Field of Mars, and the marble from that are now distributed all over the city, the steps are on the Capitoline leading up to the Church of the Altar of Heaven... and what remains of her statue is outside the United Nations building! I also went crazy trying to find the Temple of Isis remains in Ostia Antica! Thanks, Lupercus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 It's shocking how many churches and cathedrals dedicated to the Virgin are built atop previous temples to Isis in Rome. The most glaring example of this is Santa Maria Maggiore (the only Gothic cathedral in Rome), which is across the street from the Pantheon. The Iseum Campense is underneath that and quite a bit of surrounding (modern) blocks. 4 of the 8 ancient Egyptian obelisks (of Egyptian antiquity, not Roman remakes) that stand in Rome today used to adorn this Iseum. Also, just a side note... the Pantheon is not across the street from Santa Maria Maggiore, it is across from Santa Maria sopra Minerva!!! This is where the confusion comes in!!! This is the church you meant, right? In front of it is an obelisk on top of an elephant. So, I probably have the right information about the Santa Maria Maggiore and the Magna Mater afterall... which makes sense because the Pantheon is built on what had been the Field of Mars, also the location of the Isis Temple I had mentioned. (*pats self on back*) Lupercus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephele Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 and what remains of her statue is outside the United Nations building! There are remains of a statue of Isis in NYC? I didn't know that! I think I'll pay a visit to the UN this Sunday and see if I can get a nice picture of this. Do you have any more information on this -- such as where on the UN grounds this statue might be? Thanks! -- Nephele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Nope, it is a United Nations-related building in Rome! ;-) I took a photo of the statue and will post it here if possible... Lupercus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 This is the church: http://www.sacred-destinations.com/italy/r...pra-minerva.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 This is the statue of Isis (not my photo)... http://www.flickr.com/photos/jensvermeersch/2753111866/ And this is the UN building in Rome I was talking about... http://www.unicri.it/wwk/support/liaison.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephele Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 This is the statue of Isis (not my photo)... http://www.flickr.com/photos/jensvermeersch/2753111866/ Thanks for the picture! "Madama Lucrezia on Piazza San Marco is one of the 'talking statues' of Rome..." Now I need to know why this is called one of the "talking statues"! Is it because she is sculpted with her mouth open -- or is it because the structure of the statue somehow allows one to play some sort of acoustical "magic" trick by making the statue appear as though she is talking? (I know of a 19th century magician -- David P. Abbott -- who created illusions like that.) -- Nephele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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