The Date Of Christmas

[Ludovicus]

As I recall, the date of Christmas was fixed in the 300's at Rome. How was this done? What relationship did the Christian holiday of the Nativity have to do with pagan Saturnalia?

[Severus]

Not sure what the tie in with the Saturnalia is. Romans attempted to meld Christianity with their pagan beliefs and did so quite successfully. The Catholic Church is littered with saints (pray to this saint for travel, that saint for business transactions, this saint for soldiers. . . our saints are the equivalent of Hermes, Mercury, & Mars. . . ploytheism anyone?)

 

What is fact and what isn't is hard for me to say with any sense of authority. I know that the Sun god was worshipped around the time of the Winter Solstice which roughlu coincides with our Christmastime.

 

 

Winter was always a time for celebration due to weather factors. When the cold weather came in you would have to slaughter extra animals you could not provide for over the harsh winter months and eat up all the foods that would not keep after the harvest, this seasonal bounty gave way to feasting and merriment. . .

 

 

Again I'm no expert on the subject, but that's what I've been told. . .

 

 

Matt

[Zeke]

I believe this should belong in the Temple Part of our Forum.

[P.Clodius]

I think this is Ursus' domain

[Ursus]

As the Roman Empire grew and became more complex and more troubled, the traditional gods of the State began falling out of favor. Ancient gods like Jupiter were rendered lip service and perfunctory State honors, but they had for some time lost their power to inspire the population. The Romans, who had always been open to the gods of their neighbors, found that deities from the Near East and North Africa offered an exotic flair that the older Olympian gods did not.

 

Among the religious trends of the late Roman Empire was a growing penchant for solar worship. Emperor Aurelian

[Guest Emma]

hi im new, i dont know what im doing in this pg because i dont like history and im not smart but i do know that jesus could not have positively been born in december his exact dob was not giving but it was around october 1 first of all it would have been too cold for a baby to be born outside in december.....and for the record i dont think x-mas should be celebrated because the bible does not say to celebrate his birthday and it is bulgar to celebrate the most important person to have ever steped in this world birthday on the wrong day....

[Neos Dionysos]

Well Emma, as was pointed out, Christmas was techincally an invention or adaptation in order to get converts. Saying to someone, yes this day is the Feast of Sol Invictus, but it is actually something more, (enter in Jesus talk), and so now you see 'the truth'.

 

You gotta admit, that Christianity is one adaptable religion, taking on so many aspects of paganism, and using it as a tool to convert so many thousands of others to thier belief...

[Theodosius]

One thing that we must not forget to factor in is that Liturgical time need not necessarily correspond with historical time, as is the case with Easter for example.

 

(Talk of historical timelines can be very Nestorian. )

[eggers]

As I recall, the date of Christmas was fixed in the 300's at Rome. How was this done? What relationship did the Christian holiday of the Nativity have to do with pagan Saturnalia?

The Romans had a mid-winter festival in honour of Saturn, called the Saturnalia. It lasted seven days, starting 17th December, ending 25th December (on Julian Calender). During Saturnalia the Romans feasted, postponed all business and warfare, and temporarily freed their slaves. Parents gave toys to their children and there was a public banquet. In the Roman Empire, the celebrations of Saturn during the week of the solstice, with their climax on December 25th, were the main social event.

 

Saturn, the god of time, is also assosiated with the grim reaper, as his weapon was a scythe and Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto were his children. They represent Air, Water and Death, the only three things that Time cannot kill.

 

Some scholars maintain that December 25 was only adopted in the 4th century as a Christian holiday after Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity to encourage a common religious festival for both Christians and pagans. Perusal of historical records indicates that the first mention of such a feast in Constantinople was not until 379, under Gregory Nazianzus. In Rome, it can only be confirmed as being mentioned in a document from approximately 350 but without any mention of sanction by Emperor Constantine.

 

Another story states that another extremely popular cult of Persian origin, in those days was that of Mithras. The similarities between Jesus and Mithras are many. Mithras was born on December 25th of virgin birth, the son of the primary Persian deity, Ahura-Mazda. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and magi. He was reputed to have raised the dead, healed the sick and cast out demons. He was killed and resurrected, returned to heaven on the spring equinox after a last meal with his 12 disciples (representing the signs of the zodiac), eating "mizd" - a piece of bread marked with a cross (an almost universal symbol of the sun).

 

Also which date are you referring too? it's 25th December traditionally but is actually on 7th January for the Eastern Orthodox Church. This date results from their having accepted neither the reforms of the Gregorian calendar nor the Revised Julian calendar, with their ecclesiastic December 25 thus falling on the secular date of January 7 from 1900 to 2099. This calendrical difference has led to confusion on the part of those unfamiliar with the older calendar.

Edited January 18, 2006 by eggers

[Theodosius]

Also which date are you referring too? it's 25th December traditionally but is actually on 7th January for the Eastern Orthodox Church. This date results from their having accepted neither the reforms of the Gregorian calendar nor the Revised Julian calendar, with their ecclesiastic December 25 thus falling on the secular date of January 7 from 1900 to 2099. This calendrical difference has led to confusion on the part of those unfamiliar with the older calendar.

 

Hello eggers, you'll permit me to make one small clarification (not a correction).

 

Both East and West employed the Julian calender for a great number of years until Rome adopted the Gregorian calender. Although some Eastern Orthodox Churches (ie. mainly the Slavic and fanatical, schismatic Greek elements who see the adoption of the new calender as anathema to Orthodoxy...) have adopted the Gregorian, viz. the Ecumenical Patriarchate (apart from Mount Athos and possibly a few other monasteries). The Slavic Churches, although becoming signatories (I think in 1923) to the adoption of the Gregorian calender, eventually did not come to ratify its implementation for reasons of their own, unconnected to the Greek schismatic elements.

 

Only with regards to Easter is the old calender universally upheld throughout Orthodoxy.

[eggers]

Also which date are you referring too? it's 25th December traditionally but is actually on 7th January for the Eastern Orthodox Church. This date results from their having accepted neither the reforms of the Gregorian calendar nor the Revised Julian calendar, with their ecclesiastic December 25 thus falling on the secular date of January 7 from 1900 to 2099. This calendrical difference has led to confusion on the part of those unfamiliar with the older calendar.

 

Hello eggers, you'll permit me to make one small clarification (not a correction).

 

Both East and West employed the Julian calender for a great number of years until Rome adopted the Gregorian calender. Although some Eastern Orthodox Churches (ie. mainly the Slavic and fanatical, schismatic Greek elements who see the adoption of the new calender as anathema to Orthodoxy...) have adopted the Gregorian, viz. the Ecumenical Patriarchate (apart from Mount Athos and possibly a few other monasteries). The Slavic Churches, although becoming signatories (I think in 1923) to the adoption of the Gregorian calender, eventually did not come to ratify its implementation for reasons of their own, unconnected to the Greek schismatic elements.

 

Only with regards to Easter is the old calender universally upheld throughout Orthodoxy.

my bad

[Theodosius]

Also which date are you referring too? it's 25th December traditionally but is actually on 7th January for the Eastern Orthodox Church. This date results from their having accepted neither the reforms of the Gregorian calendar nor the Revised Julian calendar, with their ecclesiastic December 25 thus falling on the secular date of January 7 from 1900 to 2099. This calendrical difference has led to confusion on the part of those unfamiliar with the older calendar.

 

Hello eggers, you'll permit me to make one small clarification (not a correction).

 

Both East and West employed the Julian calender for a great number of years until Rome adopted the Gregorian calender. Although some Eastern Orthodox Churches (ie. mainly the Slavic and fanatical, schismatic Greek elements who see the adoption of the new calender as anathema to Orthodoxy...) have adopted the Gregorian, viz. the Ecumenical Patriarchate (apart from Mount Athos and possibly a few other monasteries). The Slavic Churches, although becoming signatories (I think in 1923) to the adoption of the Gregorian calender, eventually did not come to ratify its implementation for reasons of their own, unconnected to the Greek schismatic elements.

 

Only with regards to Easter is the old calender universally upheld throughout Orthodoxy.

my bad

 

 

No, not at all. I did say it was a clarification, and not a correction.

[eggers]

No, not at all. I did say it was a clarification, and not a correction.

Thanks for the info, part of the problem with discussing things that happened so long ago is its reallly hard to find what is the truth and what is archeologist oppinions! But you happy with the rest of it, im sure the rest is correct!!!

[Aphrodite]

Constantines family, notably his father and him, were worshipers of the sun god. Constantines coin has both christian (the symbol) and sun god (the latin phrase i think) references.

 

The main theory on Christmas i will throw into the pot is that Constantine chose the time of the Winter Solstace for the major religious festival of the new religion for two reasons:

 

1. To honor his personal (if not public) continuation of sun god worship.

 

2. To gently coax pagans into christian traditions - keeping the major festival at the same time as the solstace would mean the people felt some famliarity and were not as resistant to change.

[Primus Pilus]

2. To gently coax pagans into christian traditions - keeping the major festival at the same time as the solstace would mean the people felt some famliarity and were not as resistant to change.

 

Gentle coaxing doesn't quite fit as much as a deliberate manipulation in my opinion, but as the end result is essentially the same, I don't suppose there is much reason to argue the point.