Ancient Beer

[Pantagathus]

I have tried a different Dogfish Head, compliments of Pantagathus :notworthy: and something called Trappiste, also compliments of His Beership :notworthy: . Both excellent, but the latter has the edge (to me).

He has to tell us how it is best drunk though. It does make a difference.

The later was the sublime Rochefort #10 from the Rochefort Trappist Brewery.

 

The Midas presented it's flavors well from basic fridge temp all the way to room temp. Though, a slight chill is more to be desired in the Midas than a Belgian strong ale like a triple or quad which you would want closer to cellar temp +

[docoflove1974]

Anchor Brewery...I see a maritime motif yet again.

 

At least you can't go wrong! Which reminds me, I must get down to Anchor soon...I'm in need of good local :beer:

[Andrew Dalby]

Anchor Brewery...I see a maritime motif yet again.

 

At least you can't go wrong! Which reminds me, I must get down to Anchor soon...I'm in need of good local :beer:

We had a cider tasting last night. Eight different ones from last year's apples, made by me and various neighbours. Very instructive (and more and more cheerful as the evening wore on). In the early stages I was trying to remember which Roman sources mention cider ... in the later stages, I had forgotten the question and why it mattered.

[Pantagathus]

In the early stages I was trying to remember which Roman sources mention cider ...

Hydromelum?

[Gaius Octavius]

Hydromelum. From:

 

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roma...GRA*/Vinum.html

 

 

"Mulsum (sc. vinum) or οἰνόμελι is perfectly distinct from mulsa (sc. aqua). The latter, or mead, being made of honey and water mixed and fermented, is the μελίκρατον or ὑδρόμελι of the Greeks (Geopon. viii.28; Dioscorid. v.9; Isidor. Orig. xx.3

[Publius Nonius Severus]

In the early stages I was trying to remember which Roman sources mention cider ...

Hydromelum?

 

Isidore of Seville, Etymologies, Book 20, Chapter 3:

 

"Hydromelum, quod fiat ex aqua et malis Matianis. Saccatum liquor est aquae faece vini admixtus et sacco expressus.".

 

Here is a rough translation (no english version that I can find):

 

Hydromelum, which is made from water and (Matian?) apples. It becomes liquid by straining the (apple)grounds(dregs) with water. It is mixed with wine, and squeezed from a bag.

 

Please excuse the translation, I'm not with it today, I have no idea what "Matianis" means. It may be a derivative of the name of a mountain in Apulia.

 

I think it is pretty clear they are taking about pressing the apples to get the juice and then mixing it with fine, so, interestingly, it sounds like the cider was fermented, rather it was mixed with wine to get alcohol content.

[Gaius Octavius]

PNS, see post above yours.

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Mi Gai-

 

Indeed, Smith is my favorite source for finding cites. I used that article to find the excerpt from Isidore.

 

Omnes-

 

I would like to ammend my above translation.

 

I misinterpreted "faece vini" as "dregs, wine". It should be "dregs of wine". The "dregs of wine", that is, the sediment that forms during/after fermentation (more commnly known as the "lees") were commonly used as a spice. So in fact, the cider was not mixed with wine and was most likely fermented and spiced too! Sorry for my earlier mistake.

[Andrew Dalby]

Mi Gai-

 

Indeed, Smith is my favorite source for finding cites. I used that article to find the excerpt from Isidore.

 

Omnes-

 

I would like to ammend my above translation.

 

I misinterpreted "faece vini" as "dregs, wine". It should be "dregs of wine". The "dregs of wine", that is, the sediment that forms during/after fermentation (more commnly known as the "lees") were commonly used as a spice. So in fact, the cider was not mixed with wine and was most likely fermented and spiced too! Sorry for my earlier mistake.

 

Thanks very much for the reference, but actually, puzzling over the text, I think there are two definitions here: hydromelum is one thing, and saccatum is another.

 

If I'm right, all we know about hydromelum was that it was made with water and Matian apples. Matian was a well known variety in earlier times (I think Pliny mentions them?) so it's interesting that they are apparently still known in Isidore's time.

 

Well, now, if you have an effective method of crushing apples, you don't need water; the juice will ferment and make you a good cider all by itself. But if you want to make the apples stretch further (as I suspect some commercial producers do), yes, you can add water.

 

The Romans could certainly have crushed apples if they wanted to: an olive crushing mill was surely powerful enough. Or you can crush them (less efficiently) by bashing them with a block of wood, as the Romans used to do to husk emmer. After crushing them you have to press them, which can be done in a wine-press.

 

It's interesting that the evidence on this comes from Spain, which is one of the regions where good cider is made now (but it's northern Spain, the Basque country and Asturias, nowhere near Isidore's city of Seville).

 

I quite agree, anyway, that this Roman cider must have fermented: there would be no way of stopping it!

[Gaius Octavius]

I have tried a different Dogfish Head, compliments of Pantagathus :notworthy: and something called Trappiste, also compliments of His Beership :notworthy: . Both excellent, but the latter has the edge (to me).

He has to tell us how it is best drunk though. It does make a difference.

The later was the sublime Rochefort #10 from the Rochefort Trappist Brewery.

 

The Midas presented it's flavors well from basic fridge temp all the way to room temp. Though, a slight chill is more to be desired in the Midas than a Belgian strong ale like a triple or quad which you would want closer to cellar temp +

 

When will your site be up so that I can find out what 'triple' or 'quad' is? Some names, please, and the spot on your site.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Publius Nonius Severus]

Thanks very much for the reference, but actually, puzzling over the text, I think there are two definitions here: hydromelum is one thing, and saccatum is another.

 

Holy Cow, Andrew...I believe you are correct! When I look back on all of the other potables that Isidore describes in that chapter, almost all of them are only one sentence where mine was two. I am incredibly embarrassed. I didn't recognize saccatum as a proper noun, instead I recognized it as the past participle/adjective "strained" (which is a correct form) which seemed to make perfect sense to me at the time. With your revelation it is clear that that saccatum has nothing to do with Hyrdomelum and that saccatum is water mixed with wine-lees and squeezed from a bang. Mea magna culpa!. Sorry all!

[Andrew Dalby]

 

Thanks very much for the reference, but actually, puzzling over the text, I think there are two definitions here: hydromelum is one thing, and saccatum is another.

 

Holy Cow, Andrew...I believe you are correct! When I look back on all of the other potables that Isidore describes in that chapter, almost all of them are only one sentence where mine was two. I am incredibly embarrassed. I didn't recognize saccatum as a proper noun, instead I recognized it as the past participle/adjective "strained" (which is a correct form) which seemed to make perfect sense to me at the time. With your revelation it is clear that that saccatum has nothing to do with Hyrdomelum and that saccatum is water mixed with wine-lees and squeezed from a bang. Mea magna culpa!. Sorry all!

 

No problem. It just takes a fresh pair of eyes sometimes (if my eyes were fresh yesterday evening ...) I have never heard of saccatum in any context, it just suddenly appeared that the two sentences had a parallel structure.