Ancient Beer

[Pantagathus]

Yes, I have heard that said before. The usual view, though, is that boutyron is a native Greek compound word. You can pick it apart and it means 'cow cheese'.

 

Maybe both are somewhat correct? Scythian was an Indo-European language was it not? Closest to 'ground zero' per se for I-E language?

[Andrew Dalby]

Maybe both are somewhat correct? Scythian was an Indo-European language was it not? Closest to 'ground zero' per se for I-E language?

 

Geographically, yes, it was closest to the probable locality of pIE (proto-Indo-European) origins. Linguistically, it's hard to know, because practically nothing of Scythian survives, and I think most people would say that Vedic Sanskrit is slightly closer linguistically to pIE than any other recorded language.

 

But if you want to trace the word for butter (and therefore the making of butter) back to proto-Indo-European, you might be on a sticky wicket. The word really looks like a classical Greek compound, and a neologism of the classical period, though I don't deny it has been argued that it is borrowed from Scythian.

[Pantagathus]

The word really looks like a classical Greek compound, and a neologism of the classical period, though I don't deny it has been argued that it is borrowed from Scythian.

 

Well, you know I always default to your judgment on linguistics Andrew, I just appreciate you indulging my short ventures 'outside the box'

 

By the way, I'm trying to find it but do you know off hand what term Herodotus used when describing the Scythian use of blinded captives in butter making? I wonder if he just called it 'oil of milk' or something of the like?

[Andrew Dalby]

The word really looks like a classical Greek compound, and a neologism of the classical period, though I don't deny it has been argued that it is borrowed from Scythian.

 

Well, you know I always default to your judgment on linguistics Andrew, I just appreciate you indulging my short ventures 'outside the box'

 

By the way, I'm trying to find it but do you know off hand what term Herodotus used when describing the Scythian use of blinded captives in butter making? I wonder if he just called it 'oil of milk' or something of the like?

 

You come up with some amazing quotations. I had completely forgotten that one ... (hedges while trying to check reference) ... It's book 4 chapter 2. He talks about mare's milk put into the churn, the blinded captives who churn it, and the 'part that floats' (to epistamenon) and the 'part that sinks' (to ypistamenon). He doesn't use any more specific words. According to How and Wells's commentary on Herodotos, a similar description is given by Hippokrates /On Diseases/, and in that text the words are 'boutyron' and 'hippake' respectively, hippake being the specific Greek word for 'mare's milk cheese'.

[Pantagathus]

You come up with some amazing quotations. I had completely forgotten that one ... (hedges while trying to check reference) ... It's book 4 chapter 2. He talks about mare's milk put into the churn, the blinded captives who churn it, and the 'part that floats' (to epistamenon) and the 'part that sinks' (to ypistamenon). He doesn't use any more specific words.

 

Thank you Andrew,

 

For both the kind comment and finding the Herodotus reference!

 

I'm not suprised that's as much detail as he gives. However, I imagine if he had done what he often did and said something to the effect of "and the Scythians called this substance bla-bla" there wouldn't be need for debate on the issue! ^_^

[Pertinax]

delving a litle further into Galen; lard and suet are mentioned as definite accompniaments to meats,and most significantly he lists the whey content of various animals milk and pronounces cow's milk to be the least suitable as an healthy adjunct to the diet-and he warns "after taking milk a little wine should be taken to prevent damage to the teeth" -obviously id say! . So in the hierarchy of milk types the cow comes in at omega position.All in all not a favoured product or basis for product manufacture . I have to add that for skin diseases I immediatley advise the cessation of use of cow's milk and cheese, and replacement by goat /sheep /soy. The fat globules in cow's milk are large and retard digestion.

Edited March 7, 2006 by Pertinax

[Pertinax]

And back to beer-Vindolanda tablet II 190 records procurement of comestibles for one week as follows 46 litres of Massic wine ( a quality Italian vintage) some Acetum, 69 litres of Celtic beer , 187 litres of barley (maybe included here as a brewing requirement rather than a feedstuff). II 343 refers to 1715 litres of threshed bracis which is known to be included in Celtic beer.Brewing appears to have been carried out near Vindolanda as Atrectus the Brewer is mentioned by name .

So we sem to have a catholic supply of beverages in this remote fastness.

[Aphrodite]

The precise moment in history when the trick of making beer was discovered is of course long lost, but it is clear that before 2000 BC the Sumerians were skilled makers and prodigious drinkers of beer (eight different types of beer made from barley are recorded from that time, and a further eight from wheat), and the ancient Egyptians also went in for it in a big way.

 

The Greeks and Romans, however, scarcely knew of beer except as an exotic brew (the only words for it in their languages are foreign borrowings), and they considered it markedly inferior to their wine: the Greeks held, for instance, that their wine god Dionysus fled from Mesopotamia because all he could get to drink there was beer.

[Pantagathus]

It is you who hold with both hands the great sweetwort, brewing it with honey and wine! Ninkasi, it is you who hold with both hands the great sweetwort, brewing it with honey and wine!

 

You ...... the sweetwort to the vessel. Ninkasi, ....... You ...... the sweetwort to the vessel.

 

^_^

[Pantagathus]

Brewing appears to have been carried out near Vindolanda as Atrectus the Brewer is mentioned by name .

 

I wonder if Atrectus was a soldier who brewed on premises or a local civilian who brewed for the Romans using materials they provided? I see that it was mentioned he owed money to the local butcher for iron & pig fat...

 

Now, to really bring the thread back to the starting point, look at this interesting snippet I've come across:

 

"The Celtic word for beer was curmi, which seems to be linked to a word that occurs in Latin, cremor, meaning a thick broth (which is just what a barley mash is), itself linked to cremo, to burn or boil (as in cremate), and an old Slavonic word krma, meaning nourishment or food.

 

Around the first century of the Christian era a pronunciation change took place in Britain and among the mainland Gauls in which m became v, so that the word for ale changed from curmi to something closer to *corvi or *corev*. In medieval Welsh the word was spelt cwrwf (single f is pronounced v in Welsh), today altered to cwrw, while in Cornish it became coref or cor

Edited March 15, 2006 by Pantagathus

[Andrew Dalby]

Brewing appears to have been carried out near Vindolanda as Atrectus the Brewer is mentioned by name .

 

I wonder if Atrectus was a soldier who brewed on premises or a local civilian who brewed for the Romans using materials they provided? I see that it was mentioned he owed money to the local butcher for iron & pig fat...

 

Now, to really bring the thread back to the starting point, look at this interesting snippet I've come across:

 

"The Celtic word for beer was curmi, which seems to be linked to a word that occurs in Latin, cremor, meaning a thick broth (which is just what a barley mash is), itself linked to cremo, to burn or boil (as in cremate), and an old Slavonic word krma, meaning nourishment or food.

 

Around the first century of the Christian era a pronunciation change took place in Britain and among the mainland Gauls in which m became v, so that the word for ale changed from curmi to something closer to *corvi or *corev*. In medieval Welsh the word was spelt cwrwf (single f is pronounced v in Welsh), today altered to cwrw, while in Cornish it became coref or cor

[Primus Pilus]

Don't mean to intrude on the beer conversation but I saw this on another site and thought it might be interesting for those folks in the UK who have an affinity for ancient foods... Buster Ancient Farm

[Pertinax]

Most unfortunate that I am back in the Brigantian territory-AD may actually be closer.

[Aphrodite]

Excuse me if i'm being dumb... but have a load of posts been deleted from this thread?

 

I'm sure there was a a heated debated going on about beer!

[Pantagathus]

Excuse me if i'm being dumb... but have a load of posts been deleted from this thread?

 

I'm sure there was a a heated debated going on about beer!

 

The mods cut the first page or so of this thread out of a thread dealing with Legionary rations. The spark of the debate started there and is probably still in that thread.