Romans May Have Learned From Chinese Great Wall?

[Viggen]

The construction of the Roman Limes was quite possibly influenced by the concept of the Great Wall in China, though the two great buildings of the world are far away from each other, said archaeologists and historians.

 

Although there is no evidence that the two constructions had any direct connections, indirect influence from the Great Wall on the Roman Limes is certain, said Visy Zsolt, a professor with the Department of Ancient History and Archaeology of the University of Pecs in Hungary.

 

full article at Peoples Daily Online

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

The story makes sense, but I doubt the fact that Rome had some sort of strong connections with China, unless the architect who though of the Limes was chinese himself.

[Pantagathus]

You know, I really don't know how to articulate what I think about it so I'll leave it to Mr. Smiley:

 

[Favonius Cornelius]

The Romans were building peerless siege fortification long before they ever heard of anything out of China.

 

I work with a number of Chinese. They also seem to think everything about their culture is greatest and thought of everything first.

 

I think they're racist.

[Lo-Lo]

I think they're patriotic. And with the economic growth they're going through at the moment, and the wonderful history they have, they have every right to be proud...

 

The west needs to get over jealousy of any other country that does well for itself.

[Pantagathus]

I think they're patriotic. And with the economic growth they're going through at the moment, and the wonderful history they have, they have every right to be proud...

 

The west needs to get over jealousy of any other country that does well for itself.

 

Lo-Lo,

 

It's not that, and I don't think that Favonius was pressing that issue.

 

You have to admit these structures have been around for quite a long time. Is it such a novel break through to just now suggest similarity enough that (as the artical said) indirect influence from the Great Wall on the Roman Limes is certain? Of course there are similarities, it's a forified wall for Pete's sake... It's no different than the theories of the Egyptians or Sumerians having a hand in the design of Mesoamerican pyramids...

 

To me it seems that Professor Zsolt is possibly using this current prosperity of the Chinese to get published in an overcrowed area of scholarship...

[phil25]

I am always suspicious of overly superficial comparisons - "the Egyptians and the Maya both built pyramids, so the cultures must be connected" would be an example. But look at the two types of pyramids involved; look at their style and what we know of their evolution in the two cultures, and we see that a connection is not required.

 

I think the same might be true of the great wall and Roman frontier fortifications.

 

Hadrian's Wall, which I know quite well, evolved over time. It was never intended that - illustrations in popular books notwithstanding - to fight Brigantes, Picts or Scots from the wall top. Look at the positioning of wall-fort gates. Look at the location of the "vallum" or ditch BEHIND the Wall (ie on the side that was supposed to be the civilised Province.

 

Was the Wall rather perhaps to separate two parts of the Brigantian tribe? or to control the passage of people and goods, or as a customs device?

 

I am less familiar with the Great Wall, but it seems much more of a defensive line, with substantial capacity to move troops along and to fight from the wall-top.

 

I would be sceptical about any obvious links, though the Roman knew China and India, and received goods from both, and some of Crassus' captured troops from Carrhae may have found themselves living on the borders of China. So maybe some ideas did travel.

 

Phil

[Favonius Cornelius]

I don't mean to come off heavy handed. It's just my personal interactions at work more than anything that make me feel that way.

 

In general I've noticed a lot of cultural superiority complex in many eastern cultures. If in Turkey you find a remarkable Byzantine or Roman find, they are more than ready to bury it under a road or dam. A Muslim mosque in Spain on the other hand is preserved and cherished. Americans study Chinese history here in the states, I'd be willing to bet you don't find much of Roman history in China.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Yeah, I know. It is wrong that public schools these days decided to actually study a religion called Islam, yet why can't public schools study Christianity. So hypocritical when you claim a separtion of Churh/state yet you learn another religion that has settled into society.

Edited December 22, 2005 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[Favonius Cornelius]

Yeah, I know. It is wrong that public schools these days decided to actually study a religion called Islam, yet why can't public schools study Christianity. So hypocritical when you claim a separtion of Churh/state yet you learn another religion that has settled into society.

 

I don't know about your schools, but in my public school's history class I learned a lot about the history of the Christian religion and very little of Islam. That sort of 'Christians are the victims' line is popular among Intelligent Design crowds. Even if it were true, it still does not hold because we live in a heavily dominated Christian culture while Islam is so rare as to be a thing to study to know more about.

Edited December 22, 2005 by Favonius Cornelius

[Germanicus]

I don't know about your schools, but in my public school's history class I learned a lot about the history of the Christian religion and very little of Islam. That sort of 'Christians are the victims' line is popular among Intelligent Design crowds. Even if it were true, it still does not hold because we live in a heavily dominated Christian culture while Islam is so rare as to be a thing to study to know more about.

 

Not that I live in the US but agreed. I can see the rationale in learning about Islam in school. I'd imagine it aint hard to learn about Christianity over there. Learning about Islam might be aimed at preventing some xenophobia, like what what we saw in Australia in the last month.

 

Back to the great wall - we've got some stone walls here too, but we didn't learn how to build em from the great wall. We've got no Disneyland, but undoubtedly Movieworld on the Goldcoast owes some debt to it

[Ursus]

I don't believe the Romans needed the benefit of Sinic instruction in their engineering arts. If the Romans were taught engineering by anyone, it would have been the Etruscans early in Roman history.

[Favonius Cornelius]

I don't believe the Romans needed the benefit of Sinic instruction in their engineering arts. If the Romans were taught engineering by anyone, it would have been the Etruscans early in Roman history.

 

 

You know you've hit on an interesting topic of discussion: just where did those Romans get their engineering skills? I was thinking more along the lines of the Greeks.

[Pertinax]

I don't believe the Romans needed the benefit of Sinic instruction in their engineering arts. If the Romans were taught engineering by anyone, it would have been the Etruscans early in Roman history.

 

 

You know you've hit on an interesting topic of discussion: just where did those Romans get their engineering skills? I was thinking more along the lines of the Greeks.

 

Such tremendous skill (and confidence) would not,you imagine,appear overnight-I think this is actually one of the gretest Roman attributes but of which I have very little knowledge, I was hoping someone would open a debate so I could enjoy a ringside seat.

Favonius-you probably think im obsessed with lead pipes, but, Pantagathus sparked a line of enquiry that made me realise that apart from calcification inside pipes (preventing solution of lead) ,Romans used cabbage as a food and a plentiful medicine. The presence of l'methionine in cabbage (the reason they used it for hangovers without knowing what element worked) would tend to detox a person with lead and cadmium in their bodies.

Edited December 23, 2005 by Pertinax

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Pertinax, sometimes your comments about medicine makes my head explode. Fairly complicated, but interestingly enough that I can work it out in my head. I suppose I should better learn more about chemistry and biology.