Weapons

[Skarr]

Roman battle tactics were deceptively simple, but pretty effective on the field. It was Marius, I think, who noticed that the enemy were using their own pila against them by removing them from their shields and throwing them back.

 

An improved design helped in this regard by making a weak point where the shaft met the metal, thereby making it impossible for the enemy to remove the spears from their shields. In fact, the tactic proved so effective that, frustrated at not being able to remove the spear, many of the enemy would throw away their shields and the soldiers would then move in and make short work with their gladii

 

The purpose of the pila was to basically disrupt the enemy and allow the soldiers to move in under their cover.

[thamistocles]

my favorite weopen is the pilum i think its intrusting how they bent when they hit an enemys sheild or the ground

[brotus maximus]

My favorite would have to be the trusty gladius

 

Mine would be another legacy weapon of the Iberians... The Falcata

 

A sword with the power of an axe. Could cut a shield or render a helmet useless... For offensive combat, a short gladius in the left hand and a falcata in the right was hard to match. Render the shield useless with a blow from the falcata and thrust in with the gladius... :pimp:

never such true words said i will have to agree with you on that

[caldrail]

Roman battle tactics were deceptively simple, but pretty effective on the field. It was Marius, I think, who noticed that the enemy were using their own pila against them by removing them from their shields and throwing them back.

 

An improved design helped in this regard by making a weak point where the shaft met the metal, thereby making it impossible for the enemy to remove the spears from their shields. In fact, the tactic proved so effective that, frustrated at not being able to remove the spear, many of the enemy would throw away their shields and the soldiers would then move in and make short work with their gladii

 

The purpose of the pila was to basically disrupt the enemy and allow the soldiers to move in under their cover.

 

Yet the pilum was gradually abandoned from the 3rd century. Outlived its usefulness?

[mquish]

Yes, this is true, but advances in new technology has always come hand in hand with the abandonement of old

[Ovidius]

[

. Although when used as such it does require some space around you to wield, but if you have that, it's very efficient. Obviously for a legionaire, though, you couldn't do that with the large shield anyway, nor in a tightly-packed formation.

 

If you are going to state a fact make sure you know what you are talking about. A legionare didnt need any space to through his speer as it was through from above its head therfore needing no room laterally to through it. The romans had this thought about before you and I were even born and besides i dont think they would have not thought about this before sending an entire army out to fight. I have not seen or heard of a document from ancient roman times stating, "The romans lost the battle of '''''''''' because they forgot they couldnt throw there spears in a thightly packed formation.

 

 

Actually, in the Legionnary formation (triplex acies or quincunx) there was some space to bash your opponent with the shield. That was the standard operating procedure of the Roman Legionnaries: Bash your opponent in the face with the shield boss, then stab him in the stomach with the gladius.

 

Roman battle tactics were deceptively simple, but pretty effective on the field. It was Marius, I think, who noticed that the enemy were using their own pila against them by removing them from their shields and throwing them back.

 

An improved design helped in this regard by making a weak point where the shaft met the metal, thereby making it impossible for the enemy to remove the spears from their shields. In fact, the tactic proved so effective that, frustrated at not being able to remove the spear, many of the enemy would throw away their shields and the soldiers would then move in and make short work with their gladii

 

The purpose of the pila was to basically disrupt the enemy and allow the soldiers to move in under their cover.

 

Yet the pilum was gradually abandoned from the 3rd century. Outlived its usefulness?

 

The romans abandoned the pilum because it became impractical. They replaced it with the lancea, a lighter spear, and the plumbatae of mattiobarbuli (lead weighted darts, clipped into the hollos of their shields). They also abandoned the use of the scutum, but in later times.

[caldrail]

Impractical? No I don't think so, it was more likely that the gradual erosion of standards was beginning to show. If you're not trained to use pilum correctly, then its an odd spear with a bendy tip. Wouldn't it be easier to make and use a simple spear? It seems they thought so.

Edited March 21, 2006 by caldrail

[Kosmo]

I have to agree that you opened my eyes and now I doubt the a bending tip was used for pilum. How could it penetrate a shield if it bends when hiting the ground? Will be to much trouble for a kind of war that used mostly melee weapons.

If in South Africa before Shaka the batlles were carried by throwing spears from one army to the other in ancient mediterranean world heavy infantry ruled the battlefield so to put to much interest in a throwing weapon is not justified.

Pilum had an important role but pike and gladius did the job.

[mquish]

I have to agree that you opened my eyes and now I doubt the a bending tip was used for pilum. How could it penetrate a shield if it bends when hiting the ground? Will be to much trouble for a kind of war that used mostly melee weapons.

If in South Africa before Shaka the batlles were carried by throwing spears from one army to the other in ancient mediterranean world heavy infantry ruled the battlefield so to put to much interest in a throwing weapon is not justified.

Pilum had an important role but pike and gladius did the job.

 

Yes, in the end the gladius and the pike finished the job but i think you are underappreciating the important role the pilum played. The use of the pilum had a huge role in winning some of the most important battles for rome. One example out of alot would have to be Battle of watling street, britian. Boudica had being on the rampage for weeks and had gathered an army of 60,000 men. When paulinas arrived to met boudica he had an army of 10,000 men. Boudica sent her chariots and cavalry to taunt paulinas down from the hill from which he had the advantage. They threw spear after spear but paulinas wouldnt budge. Eventually boudica got impatient and sent her entire army up the hill. As the reached the top of the hill paulinas ordered his 10000 men to launch there spears in unision. Such a devasting affect it had on the britons that no sooner had they engaged with the romans did they run back down the hill. The britons were so sure of that their victory they had brought their familys to watch in wagons lined up along the entire length of the rear escape rout. They were trapped and slaughtered. Now the importants of this battle was that if boudica had won, roman rule in britain would have been at an end. So, for me and im sure many others who have knowledge of great battles the pilum was an essential weapons against any enemyboth physically and mentally( the sight of 10000 spears was sure to give even the bravest of warriors a fright and demoralise them).

[Ovidius]

Impractical? No I don't think so, it was more likely that the gradual erosion of standards was beginning to show. If you're not trained to use pilum correctly, then its an odd spear with a bendy tip. Wouldn't it be easier to make and use a simple spear? It seems they thought so.

 

 

It became impractical because their military doctrine changed in the waning days of the empire. Enemy infantry now were usually met at the halt. They sacrificed the morale lift given by a charge for order in their lines. Besides, the plumbatae or mattiobarbuli (lead weighted darts), combined with a barrage of missile weapons had longer range than the pilum.

 

Perhaps with the eventual weakening of the romans, they lost the resources to mass produce the pilum, and so abandoned its use. What do you think?

[caldrail]

If you can make enough hasta for the legions then there's no real reason why you couldn't make pila, although I concede that the pilum might be more expensive and more labour intensive. Possibly 2 spears for 1 pilum? Thats a guess based on what I've seen of them. I would prefer to think that the training of legions had devolved to the point where pila were not being used to good effect - "We don't need these things, Sir, too fussy. Lets use a spear, much easier".

[Kosmo]

Pilum was not the first or the last throwing spear used. One used with devastating effect was the "djerid" (sp?) of the turkish horseman. They even invented games to perfect in the use of this weapon. A champion of this sport, at the ottoman court, was Skanderbeg, the famous albanian rebel.

It was used by being thrown from the gallop of the horse at the target, withdraw and charge again. This was made in wave after wave of attackers until the defance was shattered.

 

10.000 pilae thrown at the same time had a devastating effect, but we know that armies that used mass missile fire could not defeat heavy infantry despite sending waves of missiles.

The phalanx defeated the persians and the legion the parths and the sarmatians.

 

I think that the foremost use of the pila was to desorganize the enemy front line seconds before the hand-to-hand combat.

 

When most enemies were mounted the romans needed a weapon with a greater range.

[Kosmo]

How were the romans deployed to throw all 10.000 the plia at the same time?

Those in the back of first line will have serious problems to see the enemy from behind 8-9 soldiers, not to mention that it was impossible to throw for those in the units behind the first line.

[brotus maximus]

How were the romans deployed to throw all 10.000 the plia at the same time?

Those in the back of first line will have serious problems to see the enemy from behind 8-9 soldiers, not to mention that it was impossible to throw for those in the units behind the first line.

they threw about a couple thousend at a time(so i've heard) and the ranks were evenly spaced apart that they could get enough room to have at least a decent throw(as some one said

I think that the foremost use of the pila was to desorganize the enemy front line seconds before the hand-to-hand combat.

so when the enemy got in range of the first couple rows they let loos so to speak (just think of how the volleys of arrows were used to knock down ranks of incoming enemys(or that was the hope anyway )

 

if i am wrong in any of this you guys let me know so i can learn what the proper stuff is

sincerly

BrOtUs MaxImUs

[caldrail]

A legionary probably carried two pilum. So each had two volleys. I doubt anyone other than the front rank or two would have thrown until their turn, so to speak. This means that the volume of spears thrown is less but there are several volleys to go before the legionaries resort to their trusty gladius.