Vatican The Last Vestige Of The Roman Empire

[emperor]

Hi I am new to this forum.

I have been going crazy looking a web site that tells me how the vatican is a mondern vestige of the west roman empire. Please tell me how you think about this and if you know about a website that can tell me.

Edited November 29, 2005 by emperor

[Ursus]

The Vatican took over the college of Pontiffs and usurped it for itself; the Pope still calls himself a Pontifex, an ancient title of a pagan official who decided when bridges could be built over the sacred river of the Tiber.

 

The hierarchy and subdivions of the church seem to parallel the later administration of the empire (e.g., diocese).

 

Finally the Catholic Church inherited the Roman legalistic mentality which defined much of Roman culture, including the old pagan religion.

[Favonius Cornelius]

Also you know, who in the world still uses Latin?

 

I think it would be more correct to say the Vatican is the last vestige of the Western Roman Empire. You can see the Eastern in the Orthodox church at least.

[emperor]

. Apparently the Vatican considered themselves as the last remaining representatives of the Western Roman Empire. Apparently the first Pope was officially recognised by Constantine by one of his laws, making the Pope an Imperial agent. And when the West fell, the Pope was then recognised by the Eastern Roman Empire as an Imperial agent.

 

Therefore the Pope was legally able to bestow titles such as 'Patrician of the Romans' etc. and later the titles of Emperor. From what I read on the online Catholic Encylopedia, the Pope apparently never lost his official capacity as an Imperial agent and considered their 'Papal States' up till 1870 as technically being Roman. They regarded the unification of Italy as an unlawfull act and the conflict between the Church and the state is still not completely resolved.

 

So is the Vatican, in a technical sense, the last remaining vestiges of the Western Roman Empire?

originily posted by tex

Edited December 12, 2005 by emperor

[Emperor Goblinus]

Hi I am new to this forum.

I have been going crazy looking a web site that tells me how the vatican is a mondern vestige of the west roman empire. Please tell me how you think about this and if you know about a website that can tell me.

 

To a large extent, yes. And if you consider the millions of Catholics, including me, spread across the world whose Church's headquarters is located in the Urbs, then I guess you can say that to some extent, Rome has indeed ended up conquering the world.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Well the Pope was still considered an agent of Rome even during the Byzantine Era. The canon laws are written in Latin. Catholic masses use to be held in Latin(the agony). Really, just go to the library and find a book on the Vatican. It would be nonsense not to find a book giving info and claiming that the Church is the last vestige of Roman culture.

[Iuvius Maximus]

I was wondering cause i have to give a opinion in my class, what was Constatine's real stand, because he turned Cristian only at his death, but still promoted it while he was polytheistic.

Another cool fact is that the monks in the basement of the church in the vatican also make new words in latin, to keep up with the times. words like Computers, Cars, etc. that have to do with new technology

iuvius maximus

[Emperor Goblinus]

They do? Strange.

[emperor]

the most important remnant of the Western Empire is the Roman Catholic Church. The Church slowly began to replace Roman institutions in the west, even helping to negotiate the safety of Rome during the late 5th Century. As the barbarians invaded, many converted, and by the middle of the medieval period (ca. 9th and 10th centuries) the entirety of the former Western half of the Empire had been completely converted to Christianity and leadership by the Pope. Ironically, Rome's final conquering of the Germans and Slavs came after her fall as an Empire through the Christian missionaries spreading ever further north, until paganism was stamped out throughout Europe.

[Ursus]

I suppose the Catholic Church is the last concrete remains of the Empire. I would submit though that in the world of ideas and politics, the glory of Rome's universal empire never died. Regimes all the way from Charlemagne to the Czars to the Third Reich have had pretentions and concessions to Rome.

[Northern Neil]

I agree with these points entirely - The Roman Empire did not fall, it evolved into something else - the Roman Catholic Church. Once the need for forts, roads and the trappings of classical culture became obsolete, Rome then used spirituality to retain control (politically as well as spiritual ) over its subjects. And it has succeeded to this day.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Its quite obvious that when the Empire was still around, almost all the Popes and saints were actually Romans themselves. They all had Roman names, and yes, the title Pontifex Maximus is still used by the Pope.

(in my opinion):After the Empire fell, the Roman people that were still around desperately needed guidance and what kept them alive, the Church nonetheless. It was up to pope now to lead,care, and provide for them. So really, the Roman community was still alive specifically in Rome and led by the Pope. So really the Empire never fell, it was just weakened down to the base but still alive nevertheless.

[Sextus Roscius]

I believe the vatican is only Roman in the sense that they never lost their title. Thought you can hardly call some one Roman becuase they speak Latin. The people of the vatican don't hold any old Roman traditions, they don't follow the Roman social system, and to call the Vatican Rome would be an insult (in my mind) to Rome's legacy which I don't think was lived up to by the Vatican or its members.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone... I have some what biased views on the Vatican.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Well its not offending, its also a good example of religious difference. Compare you and me, your Pagan and I'm Catholic. Pagans were taught in their own way and Catholics in their way too, except that we Catholics are very dogmatic and orthodox. We're taught the most basic beliefs which stick in our heads easily just by going to mass often and having some education at Catholic-based schools. So really, its not hard finding someone that would agree that the Vatican is Rome.

Note: sorry if the term Pagan is not suitable.

Edited December 11, 2005 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[Northern Neil]

The people of the vatican don't hold any old Roman traditions, they don't follow the Roman social system, and to call the Vatican Rome would be an insult (in my mind) to Rome's legacy which I don't think was lived up to by the Vatican or its members.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone... I have some what biased views on the Vatican.

 

It seems to me that Christianity in its final and current form is packed full of Roman traditions and elements of earlier paganism. That Rome shifted its seat of government from the senate house to the Vatican is merely a geographic debate.