Hbo Rome Second Season

[theilian]

If dear old Antonius is surgically removing someone's head, it is probably Mr. Tully.

Hmmm, I thought the way story had been set that Vorenus would do the service while Pullo would have to kill his own son Caesarion.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Atia was a timid, cautious thing who did her best to dissuade Octavian from taking up the inheritance - I can live with that. It's Polly's delivery that is all wrong. It is far too modern - and the fact that you have likened her to a 21st century character is proof of that. Compare her delivery of lines to that of Lindsay Duncan as Servilia, or Hadyn Gwinne as Calpurnia - or even the little cameo by the lady who played Cornelia. Jane Bertish who is Servilia's freedwoman - the little one - even - who plays Eirene! They all convince as women of the late Republic. Atia does not, and this has to be due to Polly as well as to the writers.

 

Surely, Augusta, not all women of the late Republic were the sort of dignified matrons portrayed by Lindsay Duncan. Would you have had Clodia played thus? I agree that there's been a mighty license taken with the historical Atia, but the women--and men--of the late Republic were not all cut from the same old Roman cloth, and some of them were surely just as vicious as our Atia was portrayed. Don't you think?

 

If dear old Antonius is surgically removing someone's head, it is probably Mr. Tully.

Yeah, and we all know that he died miles from Rome.

 

Indeed, which is why I couldn't imagine it was really Cicero. I'm guessing that since this season was ordered before the scripts were even written, this season won't be quite so faithful to history as was the last season. I do hope I'm wrong though.

[Pertinax]

Given the way that some "side" personalities were concentrated into representative persons, and a concentration on "striking" events in series 1, I'id venture to suggest that poor old Cicero will die spectacularly (and the hat pin/hair comb incident will be a prominent dramatic gesture).

[spittle]

If dear old Antonius is surgically removing someone's head, it is probably Mr. Tully.

 

Yeah, and we all know that he died miles from Rome.

 

 

Atia is to Rome what Livia was to I, Claudius. A pleasant fiction.

 

I would have though that Gail (The Augusta) enjoyed separating the fact from the fiction?

 

I don't mind fiction at all, Paul. I'll even accept a fictional Atia. What I won't accept is a portrayal rooted in the 20th century rather than the 1st BC. Can you accuse Sian Phillips of that? Another thing I won't accept is a woman living on for years after she is supposed to be dead just to fill a fictional plot line. Livia in 'Claudius' died when she was supposed to die. There are certain rules in historical fiction, whether on screen or in literature, that are acceptable, and some are not.

 

As for the Agrippa question again - I have now scoured the 'full casts and crews' for the 10 episodes and can find no mention of him anywhere. This is a gross miscalculation by HBO - let's even leave out the historical aspect for a moment. The man had character and was a 'rags to riches' sort of guy. Which is precisely why I think HBO are going to leave him out and let Pullo fill that role. What is the point of two of 'em? But let's face it: this show is not for the historians among us - it's there to entertain, and in that it succeeds. I just have to suspend disbelief when I watch it, that's all. I am probably way too critical, as this is what I consider to be 'my' period.

 

Fair comment on histoirical fiction.

The first series was the thing that hooked me on Roman history, so I have a real affection for it.

Whether you consider it a success or failure I still think that Atia's character was 'inspired' by I,Claudius Livia.

 

THE MISSING AGRIPPA

What about the next five generations of Julio-Claudians???

How do they explain the glut of Agrippinna's?

Vipsania? Julia?

 

Series 2 must be the last because, without Agrippa, there is no foundation to further tell the history.

Its crazy!

[The Augusta]

Surely, Augusta, not all women of the late Republic were the sort of dignified matrons portrayed by Lindsay Duncan. Would you have had Clodia played thus? I agree that there's been a mighty license taken with the historical Atia, but the women--and men--of the late Republic were not all cut from the same old Roman cloth, and some of them were surely just as vicious as our Atia was portrayed. Don't you think?

 

Yes, agreed, and this is not my argument, Cato. It seems my point is missing its mark here. Nephele has understood exactly what I meant when she compared Polly's Atia to Jennifer Saunders' Edina. There are ways to deliver the lines and play the character that would have made her a vicious manipulator but without making her sound like some spoilt bitch from West London in the 20th century. I suppose I should have made a distinction between 'portrayal' and 'performance'. But it may not be Polly's fault entirely. I have heard it said by many of our UK actresses who work on TV in the US that they receive very little direction compared to that received over here. (This is not the same for films, of course.) It may well be that she was left to get on with her own interpretation.

 

But let's have done with all this.... I think we're all more upset that poor old Marcus, yet again, has not been given his due.

[spittle]

What about the luxury that Atia and her family live in?

 

I have read Octavian described as middle class NOT upper. And certainly never called a new rich like the fantastically wealthy but less than high born Pompey.

 

Opinions please.

[theilian]

I watched the first episode of the second season. Others at HBO and TVWP are calling it the best episode ever, but I'm not sure I agree. (You can get the episode 1 DVD at Best Buy or Circuit City with purchase of HBO DVD or via torrent)

 

Some notable things from first episode:

The spoiler below contains only the details regarding historical figures/representation. I won' spoil stories about Pullo, Vorenus, etc.

 

After Caesar's death, Antony is pursued by Quintus Pompey and his gang. Later, it's revealed that Brutus gave explicit order not to harm Antony, but that Cassius gave different order to Quintus.

 

Predictably, it's Octavian who comes up with idea of amnesty and continuation of Caesar's acts.

 

It seems that Cicero's death is being set as to be 'cathartic' event. He makes a brief appearance to Brutus' house praising them as immortal liberators. Antony also shows up and hears Cicero saying these things. Cicero insists to Antony that he was not involved in 'deplorable act ' and has Brutus confirm the fact. Antony presents his compromise and waits outside while inside conspirators discuss. Cicero says it's not too late to kill Antony. He's in their hands. He adds that he's not advising a certain course of action but simply stating the facts. Brutus, sarcastically, insists that he won't do what Cicero is 'not' urging.

 

Right after the compromise is agreed, Brutus and Antony kiss each other. After Brutus goes inside, Antony nonchalantly walks to Quintus Pompey and slits his throat right in front of Brutus' house.

 

Caesar's funeral gets somewhat Pharsalia treatment. We see Brutus and Antony preparing for the big day(Antony's preparation being ****ing Octavia, but it's not explicit shown. So what's the point? ), but never see their speeches. So no Romans, friends, countrymen here. It is just described in much later scene by some ruffian in a bar. Shots of angry mob in a very short montage.

 

Later Brutus and Cassisus are shown in sweat as Antony smilingly suggests that maybe his speech was a tad bit too intellectual for the occasion. He offers them tour of Asian grain supplies and although Brutus insists that he will not run away, they leave Rome.

Edited January 9, 2007 by theilian

[Nephele]

Nephele has understood exactly what I meant when she compared Polly's Atia to Jennifer Saunders' Edina.

 

Well... Actually, I didn't intend to give the impression that I thought Atia sounded like "some spoilt bitch from West London 20th century" in my comparison of her to Edina. While "spoilt bitch" does sound a good description for Atia, in the context of Roman mores as shown in the series, along with what Atia manages to get away with, Atia certainly represents a far more malevolent, dangerous version of any spoilt bitch from 20th century West London.

 

It's mostly in Atia's interaction with her long-suffering daughter Octavia where I see the similarity with Edina and the equally long-suffering Saffron. I mean, by the same token, actress Kerry Condon was pure Saffy, right down to her bored facial expressions, in the scene in which Octavia scornfully mocked the gasps her mother makes while in the throes of orgasm.

 

All of which makes Atia my absolute favorite character in this series. Regardless of whether one feels that Polly Walker does or does not convincingly enough deliver her lines in accordance with one's expectations of a Late Republic era Roman matron, her character of Atia is nevertheless a delightfully -- sometimes humorously -- wicked piece of work that makes for a fascinating antagonist.

 

-- Nephele

[The Augusta]

What about the luxury that Atia and her family live in?

 

I have read Octavian described as middle class NOT upper. And certainly never called a new rich like the fantastically wealthy but less than high born Pompey.

 

Opinions please.

 

I think it was his ancestry that was Equestrian. His father had been governor of Macedonia after all (59BC), although as an ex-praetor rather than an ex-consul, of course. Nevertheless, the family were still Patrician. Hadn't Caesar raised them to that level at some stage? Octavian was also enrolled into the College of Pontiffs as his first position in public life, by Caesar himself. I was under the impression that one had to be Patrician to serve the priesthood, but I can't absolutely swear to it. Suetonius also tells us that Augustus was born on the Palatine. If this is so then I suppose the luxury of the house makes sense.

[The Augusta]

I've been having a bit of a rethink about this second series of Rome and the absence of our dear old Marcus Agrippa. Unforgivable as it is, I was wondering whether we are all taking it for granted that the series will go all the way to Actium? I can remember someone discussing earlier in this thread - or perhaps its huge parent - that Episode 8 of the series was concerned with Philippi, and there were remarks about dragging the events of 2 years out into 8 episodes. Now, as the series is only 10 episodes long, perhaps events do not even proceed down to the final Sicilian War of 36BC?

 

If the series is to end just after Philippi - say with Antony's dalliance in the East being dragged out - there is probably some justification for leaving Agrippa out. As I have said before in other threads, he was not Octavian's leading general until the downfall of Salvidienus in 40BC, and although we all know that he had been Octavian's friend from childhood/early adolescence (and should be already in the series in any case), he did not really have his huge say in events until the Sicilian victory of 36BC.

 

Could it possibly be that we are doing HBO an injustice?

 

The other side of this coin, however, is why Maecenas has been introduced without Agrippa. The three were a little private Triumvirate of their own, after all. I have the strangest feeling that our dear old Maecenas, with his dandified air and adornments, plus his devotion to his actors and poets, is perhaps being introduced for some slightly salacious purpose. I do hope I'm wrong - but the actor is Alex Wyndham who is very easy on the eye to say the least!

 

Does anyone have any news on the synopses for the various episodes. I can't get much up on various sites to date.

Edited January 11, 2007 by The Augusta

[M. Porcius Cato]

It's mostly in Atia's interaction with her long-suffering daughter Octavia where I see the similarity with Edina and the equally long-suffering Saffron. I mean, by the same token, actress Kerry Condon was pure Saffy, right down to her bored facial expressions, in the scene in which Octavia scornfully mocked the gasps her mother makes while in the throes of orgasm.

 

Do we really have any good ancient sources on mother-daughter interactions?

[theilian]

There is going to be Marcus Agrippa after all

[The Augusta]

There is going to be Marcus Agrippa after all

 

Well found, Theilian. If this is true, it's great news - especially as the actor looks dead right for the role. Hell - he's even got a dimple in his chin! How's that for accuracy, Cato? (We were saying.... )

[DecimusCaesar]

There is going to be Marcus Agrippa after all

 

Well found, Theilian. If this is true, it's great news - especially as the actor looks dead right for the role. Hell - he's even got a dimple in his chin! How's that for accuracy, Cato? (We were saying....

 

Excellent News! It would have been a real shame if Agrippa had been kept out of the series. I was seriously beginning to think that the second series would lose it's air of authenticity if key characters wouldn't be making an apperance.

[Nephele]

It's mostly in Atia's interaction with her long-suffering daughter Octavia where I see the similarity with Edina and the equally long-suffering Saffron. I mean, by the same token, actress Kerry Condon was pure Saffy, right down to her bored facial expressions, in the scene in which Octavia scornfully mocked the gasps her mother makes while in the throes of orgasm.

 

Do we really have any good ancient sources on mother-daughter interactions?

 

 

I don't know how "good" this ancient source is , but in his play Cistellaria, Plautus gives us a bit of a comical mother-daughter relationship consisting of an aging prostitute named Arena and her daughter (also a prostitute) named Gymnasium.

 

The relationship is that the mother is the role model for the daughter, who dutifully and obediently follows her mother's teaching as a whore just as might be expected of any "proper" Roman girl. For her "virtue", Arena tells her daughter that she'll be rewarded with eternal youthfulness:

 

GYMNASIUM: I'll always be just the way you want me, Mother.

 

ARENA: I won't regret that, for sure, as long as you keep

Doing it. As long as you do what I say,

You'll never lose your youth even if you grow old,

Taking from the men and giving to your mom,

And without costing me a thing.

 

Octavia in HBO's Rome seems to me to be a pretty dutiful daughter for the most part, even if she does despise her mother's behavior at times. After all, Roman values, and all that, come first -- whether you're a patrician or a prostitute, I should imagine.

 

-- Nephele