The Lombards / Langobarden

[Virgil61]

Wouldnt go that far. To claim ALL Northern Italians are of Germanic Blood. The Numbers of Langobards compared to the local Italic-Roman population was 3 to 1 for the Italics. So the Mass Majority was Romance.

The Langobards were the ones that addepted to Latin and to local customs. And the total Fusion was straining, but it eventually happend. The langobards influenced the Nothern Italian Romance culture with Architecture( The Romanic and Germanic element fused in Architectrure in Northern Italy) and Linguistics, the modern Milanese dialect and the southern Swiss dialect(Ticino) are Lombard dialects(fusion of the germanic dialect and Latin) and belong to the Romance Languages. There was no other ethnic fusion in Northern italy, except for that. But the Lombard germanic blood went up in the Romance blood. So modern North-Italians have a good size trace of Germanic Blood. And a lot of Northern Italian culture and architecture is Romanic-Langobard(germanic) fused.

 

I've read of DNA studies which indicate that Northern Italians have DNA traits in common with Celts and Ligurians in pre-Roman times with little trace of commonality with Germans. Since the crucial DNA markers (forgotten the name) are carried down by the mother not the father it may indicate Lombards males intermarried with the locals much more often than their females.

 

Rennasance more of a Geramn ethnic thing than Italic/Roman?

Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, Machiavelli, and Petrarch, all Tuscans, might disagree with that.

[LEG X EQ]

I've read of DNA studies which indicate that Northern Italians have DNA traits in common with Celts and Ligurians in pre-Roman times with little trace of commonality with Germans. Since the crucial DNA markers (forgotten the name) are carried down by the mother not the father it may indicate Lombards males intermarried with the locals much more often than their females.

 

Yes, but these DNA tests are sometimes dubios, i dont know what DNA test you are reffering to, but there is that organization in Northern Italy, called UNIVERSITAS STUDIORUM INSUBRIAE, which constantly wants to uphold the claims that North Italians are decendents of the Celtic Insubrians and Boii, that inhabited that region before the Romans came. But there are clear documents that the Romans butchered or deported nearly all of the Boii and Insubrians in that region, and filled it up with the roman veterans(that conquered it) and their families and Sabine(Italic) farmers from central italy. This region became Cisalpine Gaul. There are also reports of DNA testings in Ravenna(italy), the old capitol of the East-Goths, claiming east-gothic strains. I dont buy this celtic and east-gothic claim. it could be that people in Ravenna have East-Gothic blood, but its not significant(even if its true). The Lombards, came with houndreds of thousands of people, and they didnt leave. They fused. There are thousands of documents of mixed italic and Lombard marrigies in the early 8th centuray a.d.. But as i stated, the Lombard blood went up in the Italic blood. But the Last and only decendents of the Lombards are the northern Italians.(while the goths completely dissapeared.)

[Pantagathus]

Yes, but these DNA tests are sometimes dubios, i dont know what DNA test you are reffering to, but there is that organization in Northern Italy, called UNIVERSITAS STUDIORUM INSUBRIAE, which constantly wants to uphold the claims that North Italians are decendents of the Celtic Insubrians and Boii, that inhabited that region before the Romans came. But there are clear documents that the Romans butchered or deported nearly all of the Boii and Insubrians in that region, and filled it up with the roman veterans(that conquered it) and their families and Sabine(Italic) farmers from central italy. This region became Cisalpine Gaul. There are also reports of DNA testings in Ravenna(italy), the old capitol of the East-Goths, claiming east-gothic strains. I dont buy this celtic and east-gothic claim. it could be that people in Ravenna have East-Gothic blood, but its not significant(even if its true). The Lombards, came with houndreds of thousands of people, and they didnt leave. They fused. There are thousands of documents of mixed italic and Lombard marrigies in the early 8th centuray a.d.. But as i stated, the Lombard blood went up in the Italic blood. But the Last and only decendents of the Lombards are the northern Italians.(while the goths completely dissapeared.)

 

The DNA test refered to is for mtDNA. Why do you think they are dubious?

 

The Boii & the Insurbes were latecomers too as they basically squeezed by the Ligurians who really were the true autochthonous people of Northern Italy.

[Virgil61]

Yes, but these DNA tests are sometimes dubios, i dont know what DNA test you are reffering to, but there is that organization in Northern Italy, called UNIVERSITAS STUDIORUM INSUBRIAE, which constantly wants to uphold the claims that North Italians are decendents of the Celtic Insubrians and Boii, that inhabited that region before the Romans came. But there are clear documents that the Romans butchered or deported nearly all of the Boii and Insubrians in that region, and filled it up with the roman veterans(that conquered it) and their families and Sabine(Italic) farmers from central italy. This region became Cisalpine Gaul. There are also reports of DNA testings in Ravenna(italy), the old capitol of the East-Goths, claiming east-gothic strains. I dont buy this celtic and east-gothic claim. it could be that people in Ravenna have East-Gothic blood, but its not significant(even if its true). The Lombards, came with houndreds of thousands of people, and they didnt leave. They fused. There are thousands of documents of mixed italic and Lombard marrigies in the early 8th centuray a.d.. But as i stated, the Lombard blood went up in the Italic blood. But the Last and only decendents of the Lombards are the northern Italians.(while the goths completely dissapeared.)

 

You misunderstood, not having the DNA strain that proves Germanic connections, as I explained, doesn't mean that there isn't Lombard strains it may indicate marriage patterns not that there were not marriages.

 

Northern Italians have some Lombard genetics I'm sure, but it's more likely than not that Lombards were certainly outnumbered heavily by the indigenous people. And, to another of your points, the Lombard language that exists in Milano isn't a product of German dialect, it is a romance language that lies in the same sub-group as French. It has Germanic aspects to it perhaps, but my own (non-northern) Italian last name is based on a German root word for town.

 

I doubt the "clear documents" produced by ancient writers are very accurate as numbers given were notoriously exaggerated and a substantial portion of the indigenous Gaelic population remained intact. Roman colonies were founded and eventually expanded but Caesar was criticised for recruiting non-citizens in Cisapline Gaul to join his new legions. The fact that Lombard is related to French, a language with strong Gaelic influences, helps to prove my point.

 

Luigi Cavalli-Sforza is a geneticist who's worked closely with linguists on the study of populations. Conquerors who are outnumbered by the conquered populace tend to lose the genetic supremacy game and it's suprisingly closely correlated to the surviving language of the regions. Lombard is closely related to French not German and while both have Germanic aspects due to the Franks and Lombards the Gaelic influences are stronger. One of the few exceptions are when conquerors take up agriculture on the conquered lands maintaining a stable cultural foothold for language to develop. This helps explain Dacia's short term tenure under Rome and the influx of Roman veteran settlers, resulting in Romanian as a romance language.

 

Present day Northern Italians are no more German than the English are French due to Norman rule. They both carry the genetic remnants but those remnants aren't dominant. The Lombard League would love the theory that they're all Germans.

[Pertinax]

Just to give more weight to Virgils last remark-

the chance of finding anyone claiming to be Norman in Britain are remote in the extreme, possibly General Sir Peter De La Billiiere would claim ancestral continuity heavily admixed with Angle,Saxon, briton, Scotti but only names remain.The Normans pushed everyone about for a while and then were swallowed by a sea of natives, thier names surviving in Knightly families with a history of warlike service to the Throne. Their language was lost a millenium ago.

[LEG X EQ]

The DNA test refered to is for mtDNA. Why do you think they are dubious?

No, i am not questioning DNA tests. But i am questioning the sources of such DNA tests. It wouldnt suprise me if such DNA tests that are done in the name of certain societies, are manipulated. DNA tests as such, if done by a serious source, are ofcourse correct.

 

And for the Ligurian claim, i disagree strongly, Ligurians did not cover Northern Italy. They covered the North west coast of italy and parts of modern day piemonte. The Veneti covered larger parts of northern Italy. But all those were minimized by the celts anyway. Than the Romans came and sorted out hugely. Once the Romans were done, only a very small minority of Celts Veneti and Ligurians remaind in Northern Italy. The Ligurians remaind at their coast. But not within the so called TERRA FERMA.

 

@Virgil61

I agree with the linguistic part, and understand your point. but i never claimed that Northern Italians are Genetically linked with modern day germans. But Germanic culture and blood can be found in alot of northern italian fields.

 

P.S: Can you tell me something about the last name MEZZENZANA its a name that only appears in North Italy,(Novara-Milano-Varese provinces) what does this name mean? Something with, Half, right?

[Pantagathus]

And for the Ligurian claim, i disagree strongly, Ligurians did not cover Northern Italy. They covered the North west coast of italy and parts of modern day piemonte. The Veneti covered larger parts of northern Italy. But all those were minimized by the celts anyway. Than the Romans came and sorted out hugely. Once the Romans were done, only a very small minority of Celts Veneti and Ligurians remaind in Northern Italy. The Ligurians remaind at their coast. But not within the so called TERRA FERMA.

 

I think you need to read less Wikipedia and rely on the ancient geographers

 

I've just spent the last 2 weeks researching the Ligurians (from the ancient sourses) and I can tell you they stretched over a considerable portion of Northern Italy before the Celts pushed in during the middle of the 1st Millennium BC

Edited December 22, 2005 by Pantagathus

[LEG X EQ]

And i think you should get a map of northern Italy, and compare the Venti terretory and the Ligurian one.

 

And i hope you do know that the Raetians(Alpine tribe) were also present in northern italy. Verona was a raetian settlement.

Edited December 22, 2005 by LEG X EQ

[Virgil61]

No, i am not questioning DNA tests. But i am questioning the sources of such DNA tests. It wouldnt suprise me if such DNA tests that are done in the name of certain societies, are manipulated. DNA tests as such, if done by a serious source, are ofcourse correct.

 

Ok, got it. I thought you were doubting DNA research. You're correct that politically in Northern Italy the racial issue is charged with the Legia Norda and all claiming celtic or germanic origin.

 

@Virgil61

I agree with the linguistic part, and understand your point. but i never claimed that Northern Italians are Genetically linked with modern day germans. But Germanic culture and blood can be found in alot of northern italian fields.

 

P.S: Can you tell me something about the last name MEZZENZANA its a name that only appears in North Italy,(Novara-Milano-Varese provinces) what does this name mean? Something with, Half, right?

 

The Lombards did exert a small influence on the language but I looked in vain for a study in English on this. Mezza does mean half, mezzagiorno (half-day) is noon, mezzanote (half-night) is midnight, etc., but I don't know the ending for Mezzanzana. It looks like half something on first glance but my Italian isn't up to the level it was years ago.

[Pantagathus]

And i think you should get a map of northern Italy, and compare the Venti terretory and the Ligurian one.

 

I do hope you are not going by a modern map and using the region of 'Liguria' as a marker. I do have a map of the north and it utilizes geographic information bestowed on us by Strabo, Pliny and Ptolemy to places the various tribes. As long as you know which tribes were Ligurian (as I do) you see that their territory (according to the ancient geographers) was quite a bit more extensive than people now give them credit for. Milan, Turin etc.. are in what was Ligurian territory.

 

But, in the end I think we are arguing apples and oranges from different quantum realities

[LEG X EQ]

listen, you claimed that all of Northern Italians came from the Ligurians!!

And thats dead wrong, North Italy is Modern Liguria-Val D'Aosta-Piemonte Emilia Romagna-lombardia-Friuli Venezia Giulia-Veneto -Trentino Alto Adige. This is what one reffers to as North Italy. And more than 75% of this terretory was covered by Raetians-Etruscans-Veneti.Only less than 25% are than left for ligurians. Not counting the north of Tuscany. And than comes the debate of what is Liguruian, were salassi in Val d'aosta Celts or celt-ligurians. And if they are celt-ligurian than does this terretory belongs to the Ligurians?

And if Milan ever was ligurian is a myth, the terretory was Celtic.

[Pantagathus]

listen, you claimed that all of Northern Italians came from the Ligurians!!

And thats dead wrong, North Italy is Modern Liguria-Val D'Aosta-Piemonte Emilia Romagna-lombardia-Friuli Venezia Giulia-Veneto -Trentino Alto Adige. This is what one reffers to as North Italy. And more than 75% of this terretory was covered by Raetians-Etruscans-Veneti.Only less than 25% are than left for ligurians. Not counting the north of Tuscany. And than comes the debate of what is Liguruian, were salassi in Val d'aosta Celts or celt-ligurians. And if they are celt-ligurian than does this terretory belongs to the Ligurians?

And if Milan ever was ligurian is a myth, the terretory was Celtic.

 

I just said they were autochthonous. Meaning they were arguably there the longest (since the Ice Age) That is why I said we were arguing apples and oranges.

[LEG X EQ]

I dont know where you are aiming with that info, or what you want to achieve with it. but yes, i know what autochthonous means, and thats what i said. They werent in all of Northern Italy. Hardly covered half of it.

 

Your post, pantagathus.

the Ligurians who really were the true autochthonous people of Northern Italy.

My statement.

The Veneti covered larger parts of northern Italy. But all those were minimized by the celts anyway. Than the Romans came and sorted out hugely.

Edited December 22, 2005 by LEG X EQ