Greco-Roman faiths past and present

[Pertinax]

Bear in mind that though the Romans were certain that animals were ripe with "anima" that didnt stop them being "hard on themseleves and others" ie: cruelty was not a concept to be considered in the death of a beast.

If you all recall Marge Simpson is quite firm with Homer when he asks if the cute monkeys at the zoo have souls-the strict Christian answer is no-they are dumb beasts.Actually I wonder if we have the start of a new thread here-the Romans saw death as the last breath of the deceased, one would try to catch a dying parents last exhalation to draw their soul into your own-not as we would if the brain were dead but the body breathed -they would consider breath (pneuma ) to be life itself.

 

To Lost Warrior -I have redressed the gender issue- the Brigantes will always follow a female warrior if she is stern and resolute! (and sacrifices her enemies to Brigantia as Mother Goddess)

 

To Pantagathus- the path of the Mariner is fraught with peril and the balm of fecundity.

 

[note from ursus: this post removed from other thread and merged with this one]

Edited November 22, 2005 by Ursus

[Ursus]

This was split from the vestal virgins thread as it evolved to other topics.

 

re: sacrifice. There were in ancient times peoples and cults who objected to animal sacrifice. Albeit most of them were fringe mystical movements. Nonetheless, there is a precendent for preferring bloodless sacrifice to blood sacrfice.

 

As most reconstructionists practice in private at home or in small groups, the viability of animal sacrifice is not always apparent. To find someone who knows how to prepare an animal and then lawfully dispose of the remains - it doesn't really work unless you have a farmer in the group who lives outback away from people. Then if course there is the bad press that results from animal sacrifice, with the usual accusations of Satanism and so forth.

 

Then there is simply the cost. Who pays for it all? In the old days the state provided everything, and the meat was given to those in attendence - mostly the urban poor, for whom animal sacrifice was about the only time they ever tasted meat. I daresay there was an element of welfare mixed in with the communal religious activities. Now that there is no longer a state that is willing to fund the festivals, and because the novelty of eating meat is lost to a world where anyone can order a burger at McDonald's, animal sacrifice doesn't quite have the ring it used to.

[Zeke]

Let me clarify with everyone that I DON'T THINK the gods are all powerful. In terms of mateiral goods I think they are all powerful but in terms of controlling the universe.....not one god controlls the entire thing. If one god or goddess controlled the universe then that god or goddess probably would have created the perfect world by now. But since the gods are constantly fighting and have human vices there is not a perfect world. That is just my opinion on the matter.

 

Also to add the topic of animal sacrifice....the rich nobility of Rome indulged on meat that probably hand't been on an altar and they came down with all the rich man diseases. (Heart attack, obesicty, stoke, circulatory problems) But the poor who ate only the sacrificial meat in moderation were much more healthy and fit. I believe the lower and middle classes survived longer then the nobility of Rome because they lived healthy lives, wern't involved in the corrupted beaurcracy and from a religious stand point only ate the meat that had been offered to the gods.

 

But noways we value different things, and those things arn't ussually animals unless we are involved in animal husbandry as an occupation. But to me, the gods seem to like organic matieral and things from the Earth. In my mind offering a light bulb or nail isn't pratical they just don't have any signifigant value. Imagine if you gave your aunt a light bulb for Christimas! No, I believe the gods prefear cards, and flowers, and sweet food stuff because that is what we humans enjoy and seeing as how the gods are like humans, they enjoy the gifts we enjoy. But Ipods and Cd players and all the other technological garbage that is on the market isn't appropriate in my opinion. I havn't tried it but I bet they like small wood toys and small ceramic dolls because these things are cute and inocent. (Shrugs)

 

But when the animal sacrifice stopped, the world didn't end hence the gods don't nessisarily need animals to continue to have streangth. I believe the gods are there but are just waiting to be discovered, they control universal affairs as always but now they are hidden from the comman mind of man because of Christianity and the other dominate faiths. I am not saying Christianity and the other faiths are bad of coarse, but with their comming the gods of old went into the shadows to wait for when man would return to them.

 

Hence the story didn't end with the estinqushing or the Fire of Vestal, or the chopping down of Thor's oak, or the destruction of the Temple of Uppsala, or the massive burning of Drudic litteture or any of the bloody attacks that ended Paganism through out Europe.

 

You have many choices in life.....you can be like everyone else and fallow a mainstream religion like Christianity and Islam which is fine these two great religions have brought much to the world.

You can be an athiest and not believe in anything which is cool to.

You can fallow your own personal life philiosphy and live humbly and honestly,

Or you can be Polythestic and try to rebuild the burnt pages of the Pagan Story

 

The last one is what the main disscusion of this topic is about Reconturctionists who wish to peice together the past and make a brighter tommarow for the religions that long ago died out in the face of oppression.

 

I could style myself as a Reconturctionist but as I see it the Faiths of Europe need a new message. The same exact old ways don't work as seen by the evidence that when Christianity came as soon as the populance lost its disturst of the cult switched over to it because it offered a message and was much more covient to them.

 

First off:

Its not pratical to kill animals unless you got the money to do it and with the new animal rights laws its hard to do anyway. I am not going to go dress up in a Toga and pretend to be Roman or dress up in Celtic grab just to conduct a ritual. Rituals are important but they shoud be liberalized, and open to everyone so everyone can flock to the temples and have a big barbeque for the gods. If recontructionists really want to attrach anyone to their message they should adjust to the culture that we HAVE NOW, of coarse you can have the marble statues of the gods and have incense filled stone temples but let people just walk in, make a quick prayer, make an offering, listen to a five minute speech by the priest then leave. Simple, quick and clean. Then when there is a special cermony let people go out of their own free will for an hour to stay and listen to the priest make a speech about the glory of the gods. Then the soothslayers could go outside and read the omens that appered before them, make sure the gods were turly pleased then they would do some sort of universal prayer that would welcome the old gods into the abode of the temple. People could have a huge feast, socalize and relax on the couches in the temples all in honor of the gods then leave and continue life as normal,with out the stress and the vigorous demands of a moral religion on their daily lifes. If the people really want extra moral support then the temple will have several philosphers representing the different schools of thought to teach a lesson every Monday of Tuesday Night. (Shrugs) Doesn't that idea sound nice?

 

People can just loungue around, talk to the priest, enjoy themselfs make an offering then leave. It sounds so wonderful and perfect that it could work someday. And best of all the temple can allow homless bums to sleep on its floors so that the gods can bless them and make them un-homless lol.

 

Thats just my idea.....if the "Reconstructionists" really want to get a fallowing they should adapt to our society.

 

Sorry to bamble on like this but I was in the mood.

Sorry about spelling to.

 

Zeke

Edited November 23, 2005 by Zeke

[Tiberius Sylvestius]

I can't argue with that Zeke, i think much the same way as you do on that one. The religio should be modernised to make it compatible with todays values.

 

I want to just go off on a tiny philosophical tangent here that is plausibly related to what happened to the old gods.

 

Have you ever heard of the English fantasy writer Terry Pratchett and his Discworld novels? I heartily recommend you read his book 'Small Gods', it's a somewhat cynical take on religion, but he addresses the issue of what happens to the gods of religions that are pushed out of the main stream?

 

In a basic summary he argues that; The more followers a deity has the more powerful they are and the less they either depend upon each individual follower or the less they are willing to do for each individual follower (as they don't need to please everyone, they can afford to lose a few thousand and not even notice). Pratchett argues that humanity invents gods and their belief in them shapes the god's physical form and their role. I would argue that it's more a case that the god exists already but has made humanity aware of their presence and their form and role in society.

 

Pratchett argues that whenever the name of a god is lost to memory and not written down anywhere then they slowly fade away and become but whispers in the wind, think of the neolithic age deities that we only know about from cave paintings... don't know their names or their exact purpose, no idea how they were worshipped, or why. It may be the case that they can remanifest themselves as a different deity later on to a new generation.

 

So following Prachettian logic on this, the Roman gods once displaced from the mainstream and relegated to either a very covert religion, or merely remembered in a secular way from myths, legends and historical accounts. Well they lost power and began to diminish, still existed but lost alot of power. Therefore they are eager to win back supporters so they can gain strength.

 

Thus as the 21st century progresses and the old religions are gaining more and more ground they ultimately will gain more and more power and be able to do the things they once did.

 

 

That's if you think there is any credibility in that argument of course. It's an interesting school of thought though to show that religions are not set in stone.

 

 

As for reconstructionism as much as i like the idea in theory it has problems. Firstly we are not in ancient Rome, secondly the majority of the population would think it weird (if not devil worship... sacrifice generally leads people to think this). Thirdly it's impractical. Christianity in Europe is on a downward slope, as European countries are becoming increasingly more secularised you have to ask why!

 

One answer i hear time and time again is that going to church on sundays is something that grandparents do, it's old fashioned and not keeping up with the times. Religions that try and fix themselves on a set of beliefs and impose them upon society generally end up losing the battle sooner or later. In a time where technology is advancing faster and faster and outdating itself day in day out, a religion that tries to fix itself upon a time in the past and refuses to alter will eventually either have a schism (like the Reformation, and like the continual breaks in Protestant groups), or people will simply consign it to history.

 

The problem is when you're trying to bring back a religion that 99% of the population thinks is already history and has been for a thousand years... well you either have to be flexible and the gods have to adapt, or people simply won't follow it and they'll be left with no followers.

 

 

Gods like humans might not like change, but sometimes you have no choice. So whilst the gods would maybe love to see an animal sacrafice dedicated to them, they know that things sometimes do change.

 

Look at early Greece, no actual temples to deities but merely sacred areas for them, which eventually got altars and eventually ended up with massive temple complexes, religion changed then, it will continue to do so now.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Tiberius Sylvestius

[Zeke]

Very intresting!

 

I agree with all your points provided Tiberius Sylvestius. I am going to have to look at this author Terry Patchett. You are one of the few people I have I met on the interent that shares a general view like me, though my beliefs are constanstly changing.

 

What does everyone think of anceint spirits inhabbitating places of old? Though Christianity is the dominate faith in the cities of Europe it seems that the places that are deep in the woods are commanded by a peaceful neutral like pressence. Does anyone ever get that fleeing when spending any time in nature out of the space of civlization.....its that deep spirtual fleeing that something is close to you. I think certain rocks, trees and glades that were around before Christianity came along are still inhabbited by the ancient Pagan Spirits of the land. Their power doesn't effect you very much because it is weak but it is there. I don't know if it's me being over zealous or what but I feel something when I am out in the boonies so to speak.

 

Here in Hawaii the Pagan Gods, though destoryed back in the 1820s by the early Christian Misionaries, still have a strong pressence here. There are thousands of stories of ghosts and old warriors comming back to haunt those who disrespect grave yards. I do native Hawaiian canone paddaling and when we chant in Hawaiian you get that fleeing of the old ways in your chest. (Shrugs) Alot of people talk about the "Mana" of the islands. Because Hawaii is a spirtual place even with all its tourist garbage.

 

Sorry about spelling and gramatical errors.

 

Zeke

[Ursus]

As for reconstructionism as much as i like the idea in theory it has problems. Firstly we are not in ancient Rome, secondly the majority of the population would think it weird (if not devil worship... sacrifice generally leads people to think this). Thirdly it's impractical. Christianity in Europe is on a downward slope, as European countries are becoming increasingly more secularised you have to ask why!

 

 

An acquaintance of mine (Kallistos, who registered for this forum but is unfortunately too busy to participate) compares modern efforts of Reconstructionism to Judaism.

 

Judaism is an ancient faith living in a modern world. How different sects of Judaism balance tradition with modern sensibilities has led to three basics groups of Jews.

 

The Orthodox of course make as few concessions as possible to the modern world. But even they have had to adapt the loss of their ancient Temple State.

 

The Reform have done away with quite a bit of the ancient heritage that simply doesn't fit in with the modern world. Nonetheless there is still a tie to the ancient heritage that defines them as Jewish.

 

And then the "Conservatives" are the moderates who try to chart a middle course.

 

As small as it is, the Reconstructionist community is nonetheless bitterly divided about how to reconstruct these religions, and the divisions can be likened to the sects of Judaism.

 

The most liberal of Reconstructionists are willing to sacrifice quite a bit of the ancient understandings like the Reform Jews. In practice many liberal reconstructionists are former Wiccans or former liberal Christians who have a strong New Age bend. A lot of them seem to practice their religion as some sort of political protest against conventional society (convention defined as Judeo-Christianity and consumerism), but that's just my biased observation.

 

The most hardcore Reconstructionists are like the Orthodox Jews and are sticklers for historical details. Some are activity seeking to rebuild Iron Age socio-political communities in which to practice their ancient faiths. You thus have Celtic and Germanic pagans who are trying to rebuild tribal structures. You have Egyptian pagans who follow the lead of someone who calls herself a Pharoah. And then you have Nova Romans, who want to believe that their internet society is the heir to the Roman Republic. This stuff is not my cup of tea, but different strokes for different blokes.

 

And then you have people in the middle like myself, so-called moderates, who try to remain true to an ancient legacy while still living fully in the modern world. It can be a difficult balancing act, but a rewarding one for those so inclined.

 

Anyway, the point is pagan Reconstructionism is not a monolithic entity and people disagree about exactly how much of the past is relevant to the modern world.

[Lost_Warrior]

What does everyone think of anceint spirits inhabbitating places of old? huh.gif Though Christianity is the dominate faith in the cities of Europe it seems that the places that are deep in the woods are commanded by a peaceful neutral like pressence. Does anyone ever get that fleeing when spending any time in nature out of the space of civlization.....its that deep spirtual fleeing that something is close to you. I think certain rocks, trees and glades that were around before Christianity came along are still inhabbited by the ancient Pagan Spirits of the land. Their power doesn't effect you very much because it is weak but it is there. I don't know if it's me being over zealous or what but I feel something when I am out in the boonies so to speak.

 

Of course. Spirits are everywhere. Sadly they are neglected most of the time...and those who CAN speak with them are made out to be psycho.

[Zeke]

Ursus your reply on this post was wonderful.

 

I think I would call myself a Moderate because I am not a liberal Christian, and I was never Wicca and I basically try to do the same thing your doing.

 

Zeke

 

p.s Lost Warrior: What type of "Polythesit" are you?

[Lost_Warrior]

Basically...I worship both Celtic and Roman Gods and follow what one described as being "hard" polytheism-each God being an individual entity and not part of a larger whole.