The Ligurians

[Pertinax]

Cowslip is quite hallucinatory if you overdo the recipe by the way-(saponin glycosides)Iit happens to be a very good nervine for precisely this reason if used in a reasonable dose strength, (and just to add it became "Our Lady's keys" as Freya was pushed aside by Christianity).

 

posted illustration in gallery-as Freya's key

Edited December 16, 2005 by Pertinax

[Andrew Dalby]

Cowslip is quite hallucinatory if you overdo the recipe by the way-(saponin glycosides)Iit happens to a very good nervine for precisely this reason if used in a reasonable dose strength, (and just to add it became "Our Lady's keys" as Freya was pushed aside by Christianity).

 

Thank you, Pertinax, an excellent reason for picking cowslips. They are becoming rare in British hedgerows I believe. I thought the reason was the spraying or the petrol fumes: maybe they are being over-harvested by hallucinands.

[Pertinax]

well kids used to pick them to make daisy chains -but im not too sure now .The gallery photo ive put up is in some undisturbed secondary woodland by the way,( no I didnt eat any!).

[Pantagathus]

Cowslip is quite hallucinatory if you overdo the recipe by the way-(saponin glycosides)Iit happens to a very good nervine for precisely this reason if used in a reasonable dose strength, (and just to add it became "Our Lady's keys" as Freya was pushed aside by Christianity).

 

Thank you, Pertinax, an excellent reason for picking cowslips. They are becoming rare in British hedgerows I believe. I thought the reason was the spraying or the petrol fumes: maybe they are being over-harvested by hallucinands.

 

Hmmm, as may or may not be known, Morning Glories (seed pods I believe) are also hallucinogenic. Though I don't think many people realize that as they grow quite prolifically here in the South. I guess the hallucinands already have enough to keep them busy!

 

On a side note to bring this back into context, I am so far unlucky on finding an online greek version of Strabo's 4th Chapter... So the Lovage - Ligurian connection remains elusive!

Edited December 19, 2005 by Pantagathus

[Pertinax]

Yes Bindweed as we know it-Convolvulus -grows happily over my fence. It is one of several strongly inter -related species with a very wide range.Hallucogen, convulsivant, deleriant and purgative, get the dose wrong and you are done for.Only used as a homeopathic medicine.

 

I have posted in the gallery area beautiful but no touching!

Edited December 19, 2005 by Pertinax

[LEG X EQ]

@Pantagathus

 

I have a question, as to what culture would you classify the Taurinii and Salassii? Ligures or Gauls? or maybe Celt-Ligures?

[Pantagathus]

@Pantagathus

 

I have a question, as to what culture would you classify the Taurinii and Salassii? Ligures or Gauls? or maybe Celt-Ligures?

 

I think by the time Augustus dealt with the Taurini and Terrentius Varro dealt with the Salassi both would definitely be classified as Celto-Ligures with the Salassi leaning more towards the Gaulish side and the Taurini more towards Ligurian.

 

However, from everything I've read by the ancients it seemed the concensus was that both would have been classified more as Ligurians at the beginning of the Celtic migration period but over time received enough Celtic stock through intermarriage & conflict to make it unclear after 200 years or so.

 

Regardless, the Salassi behavior leading up to their final subjugation actually strikes me as very typical Ligurian. Bold little buggers...

Edited April 3, 2006 by Pantagathus

[LEG X EQ]

Thanks,

 

Celto-Ligures was also where i was leaning to.

As for their height, how much was their average height? All i know about their appearance is that they were descriped as to be the first of the long haired nations and to have auburn coloured (red/brown) hairs.

Strabo said:

Many tribes occupy these mountains, all Celtic except the Ligurians; but while these Ligurians belong to a different people still they are similar to the Celts in their modes of life.

 

Could it be that the Lepontii are also Ligurian or Celto-Liguria? The Lgures are the carrieres of the Terramare culture that took place in north-west Italy and south-east switzerland, The Ligures than migrated by boat all along the Rhone and its valley and from there, along the french riviera. So could it be that the lepontii are a ligure tribe?

[Pantagathus]

As for their height, how much was their average height?

Ligurian height was always described as quite a bit smaller than their neighbors but considering their Celtic neighbors were described on the other side of the scale, it doesn

Edited April 4, 2006 by Pantagathus

[Andrew Dalby]

One thing Diodorus said that has provoked me again on this subject has to do with the speech of the native Corsicans. It was both reckoned by the ancients and seems logical today that those people came from the same stock as the Ligurians.

 

That being said, Diodorus tells us that it was very hard to understand the Corsicans; not impossible, just very hard. Obviously it was a dialect of a known language, but which one? Did they speak an ancient dialect of Euskara (they were described as being a lot like the Cantabrians

[Pantagathus]

Obviously, with a single statement like this, you never know whether to take it at face value.

 

I just recently got my own Loeb copy so I've been having immense fun with Book 5. However, Diodorus is also frustrating when it comes to things like this. He can say some pretty incredulous stuff at times that you know to be blatantly false & fanciful. But then there are interesting tidbits like this whose context seems acceptably based on reality

Edited April 4, 2006 by Pantagathus

[LEG X EQ]

Thanks,

 

Its a pitty that all the information that the Etruscans collected and had were destroyed. We would all know more if they were still present.

 

I found a text about the Taurinii and Salassii that was written from Diodorus Siculus ca. 50 BC in a german history book, passages were also used by Gabriel De Mortillet. (i translate the best i can)

 

"The Salassi and Taurini inhabit a sour earth, and lead hard lifes. They carry powerful and heavy tools and weapons. The whole day they cut firewood, they work the earth, crack stones, because of the harshness of the land. They succeed to tame the nature with their consistancy of hard work, but they pick rare fruits with difficulty. They share the hard work with their women, who are accustomed to work with their men. They get their main food sources from Hunting and Fishing to compensate the poverty that comes from the fruits and land. Since, they live on incredible mounts (Alps) they are accustomed to face roughness, become strong and muscular in the body. In these places the women have the force and the authority of the men. -- In Battle they have an armor lighter than one of the Roman, they protect with an oblong shield, in compliance with the Gallic use, and the tunica is tightened by a belt and they wear pants made of sheep wool. They have one sword of medium length. They are strong and fearless not only for the war, but also in the comparisons of the difficulties that, in the life, introduce sourness.-- They take care of their Long hairs which they wash in the cold alpine streams."

 

I would like to add: On the topic of their height, i couldnt find anything. I know the Ligurians were considered great warriors and employed by the syracuse(greeks) as mercanaries. But also there i didnt find anything on their height. All i found was this

Ligurians: They wore long sleeved tunics with a broad leather belt and a cloak. These were probably fairly plain for the ordinary warriors but more varied for the richer ones. Their shields were Gallic style but chopped of at the top and bottom. Archaic conical helmets may have been worn.

 

As for the Lepontii, i have read in numerous texts that they used the Etruscan Runes (alphabet)(the exact same runes, not a variant), is that true? Can any really confirm this?

Edited April 5, 2006 by LEG X EQ

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Sorry, I haven't really noticed thread.

 

Just wondering if someone can summarize the progress of what we've learned about the Ligurians so far?

[Pantagathus]

I found a text about the Taurinii and Salassii that was written from Diodorus Siculus ca. 50 BC in a german history book, passages were also used by Gabriel De Mortillet. (i translate the best i can)

 

It seems that book has taken some liberties to elaborate... Diodorus' actual text is a bit more terse (though I recognize a lot of his passage in there) and in it he speaks of the Ligurians as a whole with no tribal distinctions made.

 

I would like to add: On the topic of their height, i couldnt find anything. I know the Ligurians were considered great warriors and employed by the syracuse(greeks) as mercanaries. But also there i didnt find anything on their height.

 

I'll get back to you on the actual references for the height thing.

 

However, I think whatever writer said that Diodorus claimed their shields to be of Gallic type is in error. I don't have my Diodorus in front of me but I know this is what Strabo said: "They use but few cavalry in war; their infantry are good, and excellent slingers. Some have thought that their brazen shields prove these people to be of Grecian origin."

 

In other words, there shields were more a Greek style than Gallic. I'm pretty sure Diodorus says the same thing. Incidentally, I think this can be explained away by the long interaction between the Ligurian tribes & Greeks of Massalia.

 

As to the runes, I've not come across that but it wouldn't suprise me.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Pantagathus

[LEG X EQ]

As for the text, you mention liberties. What exactly. The thing i find strange about the text is the reference to the women. Makes it seem that the women did male labour all year long, while De Mortillet describes it more as seasonal participation.

 

As forThe shields, no the second quoted text has nothing to do with Diodorus, and isnt mentioned along with it. But in the text that was written in the history book refering to diodorus and the texts of de mortillet, all refer to gallic type shields.

 

But, my logical guess is that. Like the Gallic Hordes, the Ligurian warriors were not uniformed in terms of helmets (did they use any?) and shields. The Ligurian tribes that lived on the cisalpine side, used the modified gallic type shield and the Transalpine Ligurians used the greek type shields. As for the rest, Long sleeved tunics, Cloaks and sheep wool pants are the norm of the ligurian warriors.

 

In connection to the greeks, i only know about their trade, attacks on the colonies and the myth of the foundation of marseille, were the leader of the greeks marries a ligurian queen.

 

 

ADDITION: This link, which has also passage from the text of Diodorus that i translated http://warflute.org/armies/ligurians_polemicus_army.html

Edited April 5, 2006 by LEG X EQ