Did Caesar Ultimately

[M. Porcius Cato]

While important, this also makes the assumption that Rome's northern neighbors were indeed peaceful. While Caesar was clearly an aggressor, and nobody in their right mind should ever doubt that fact, the Gauls and Germanics had a long history of enmity with Rome. Yes, some tribes were allies and some were not, a condition absolutely manipulated by Caesar to his benefit but to call all the tribes peaceful is not a fair reflection of the entire state of affairs. I will not argue that Caesar did not 'stir up trouble', thats undeniable, I only contend that all was not quite so rosy between Gaul and Rome.

 

Maybe we can revive this discussion under the Gallic Wars thread. I'd be interested in whether you thought Caesar's actions in Gaul were legal or illegal.

[P.Clodius]

Ahhhh, Cato, Cato, Cato....You certainly picked the right user name... Anyway, as previously stated it was not Caesar that caused the "downfall" of the republic end of story. Caesar was a product of his environment. Nothing more nothing less, and he did NOTHING without precedent.

 

Were the optimates merely envious of Caesar and driven by personal jealousy?--not in my opinion

I have to quote the above. The keyword here is "personal", and should be read as "self interest".

On or around 19th March, 44BC the senate was convened by the consul Mark Anthony and a proposal was submitted that Caesar should be declared a tyrant. This proposal was welcomed by the "tyrannicides" and their supporters as it would legitimize their murder of a lawfully appointed official. However, when it was pointed out by Mark Anthony that all of Caesar's legislation, laws, and appointment would be annulled if he was so labeled, the proposal was unanimously denounced. Why? One answer. The so called tyrannicides owed their position to none other than the very legally appointed official they had murdered and they would have had to step down from their various post/positions. This is ONE example of the kind of self interest that did "destroy" the republic.

 

As for your bullet points, I welcome the starting of a discussion pertaining to these.

[M. Porcius Cato]

On or around 19th March, 44BC the senate was convened by the consul Mark Anthony and a proposal was submitted that Caesar should be declared a tyrant. This proposal was welcomed by the "tyrannicides" and their supporters as it would legitimize their murder of a lawfully appointed official. However, when it was pointed out by Mark Anthony that all of Caesar's legislation, laws, and appointment would be annulled if he was so labeled, the proposal was unanimously denounced. Why? One answer. The so called tyrannicides owed their position to none other than the very legally appointed official they had murdered and they would have had to step down from their various post/positions. This is ONE example of the kind of self interest that did "destroy" the republic.

 

Great example--this kind of venality was certainly an impediment to reform.

 

Look forward to continuing this discussion elsewhere, especially to hear how Caesar was just "a product of his environment"--was it his lack of a good male role-model?

[Tobias]

So, rather than just "agreeing to disagree", I suggest we move on to discuss the myriad subissues that are at stake. If we do, we might just learn something new about the republic. To me, that's the real fun, and I hope you agree.

 

I'm glad we can agree there Cato sir

Let us indeed move forward, and meet again in another fiery debate

[Germanicus]

especially to hear how Caesar was just "a product of his environment"--was it his lack of a good male role-model?

 

There can really be no question that he was a product of his environment. You can't see that Cato ? Another thread perhaps as you suggested.

[P.Clodius]

There can really be no question that he was a product of his environment. You can't see that Cato ? Another thread perhaps as you suggested.

 

I don't think there is a need to start another thread, this one seems adequate.

 

Lets take a look at the political environment of Caesar's time. Remember that the political and legal system was based on precedent.

 

1) Political murder,(Caesar never did). Tiberius and Gaius Graccus, Livius Drusus..murdered by senate fanatics

 

2) Political persecution of national heros by the senate, ex. The Scipios

 

3) Political corruption. see M.P.Cato Minor and governorship of Crete (veto of the bill to overturn the laws of Clodius).

 

4) Taking of Rome using millitary force. Conducted by partisans of the senate, L.C. Sulla et al.

 

Note item 3, even Rome's ardent constitutionalist was willing to bend when HIS interests were at stake.

[M. Porcius Cato]

There can really be no question that he was a product of his environment. You can't see that Cato ? Another thread perhaps as you suggested.

I don't think there is a need to start another thread, this one seems adequate.

I agree with Germanicus--there should be a new thread. And I don't think anyone is simply a product of their environment, whether there is precedent or not. Obviously almost everything Caesar did was precedented--I don't dispute that. But defending a wrong action based on someone else doing it first is a child's excuse.

Edited December 20, 2005 by M. Porcius Cato

[P.Clodius]

Obviously almost everything Caesar did was precedented--I don't dispute that. But defending a wrong action based on someone else doing it first is a child's excuse.

 

Please let me offer my "child" like excuse. Caesar and his partisans didn't see it is wrong, it had been done before as you acknowlege. What WAS new however was Clementia , offered by none other than "Caesar the Merciful" as you scornfully refered to him in another thread.

 

I'm still interested in what you have to say to this.

3) Political corruption. see M.P.Cato Minor and governorship of Crete (veto of the bill to overturn the laws of Clodius).

Edited December 20, 2005 by P.Clodius

[M. Porcius Cato]

I'm still interested in what you have to say to this.

3) Political corruption. see M.P.Cato Minor and governorship of Crete (veto of the bill to overturn the laws of Clodius).

 

Cato's governorship was supported by Caesar, and his tenure was a model for all future governors. Frankly, I don't know what response you're looking for.

Edited December 20, 2005 by M. Porcius Cato

[P.Clodius]

Why did Cato veto the bill to overturn the laws of a political enemy? One of these laws was Cato's appointment to the govenorship of Crete. The propsal to overturn Clodius' laws occurred after Cato's return from Crete.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Why did Cato veto the bill to overturn the laws of a political enemy? One of these laws was Cato's appointment to the govenorship of Crete. The propsal to overturn Clodius' laws occurred after Cato's return from Crete.

Not that this is relevant at all to this thread, but why did Cato not support overturning the agrarian bill and the governorship of Cyprus (I assume you meant) when Cicero wished to vindicate himself over Clodius? Presumably for the same reason Cato urged Cicero to go quietly into exile after Clodius had him purged in the first place. Cato was, for once, compromising. I assume he felt no particular pride in this, which is why he refused all the honors the senate wanted to bestow upon him once his returned from Cyprus.

[P.Clodius]

Another reason he vetoed the bill was because he would have had to give back all monies he took from his province. You can do a lot with money, including buying a supposed no flinching, unbendable constitutionist!

[M. Porcius Cato]

Another reason he vetoed the bill was because he would have had to give back all monies he took from his province. You can do a lot with money, including buying a supposed no flinching, unbendable constitutionist!

 

He never filched a dime from the province, and no one has ever accused him of it. Every single historical source praises his governorship as the model of fiducial responsibility. What are your sources otherwise? I'd really like to know. Perhaps the same sources that put him in Crete?

[P.Clodius]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/037575895...glance&n=283155

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

I think you can find the life and times of Cicero online easily, I've read some of it somewhere, I just can't remember.