Pax Orbis Furius Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Ave! Claudius was severely underestimated by all. This saved his life. During the many radical, violent purges after the death of Augustus, Claudius was overlooked as insignificant, an idiot, below even the lowest slave in intelligence. This is patently false, far from the true intellect of Claudius as could be. Claudius was not disabled mentally in the slightest. The Romans judged people on visible accomplishments, glory, victory, and the achievement of more and greater political achievements, public fame. This cycle of achievements was never ending, to Roman nobles it was always the next glorious act that was sought after, too never stop striving, never reach satisfaction. This psychology of externalized self-esteem caused every person to misjudge Claudius because they could not picture him as a soldier, statesman, senator, and orator. Locked in a culture dominated by exclusionary social warfare, no Roman could visualize him in any position open to a man of his social rank. This was a great shame to the Roman mind, for what else could a nobleman do? To actually work was a concept totally vile to the Roman nobility, this left Claudius with no options but private study, far from his rightful place in Imperial politics, lucky for him. His stammer and weakness of body allowed him to be one of the few Emperors wise enough to hold the office, he did not waste his days with endless social maneuvering but in study with his great tutors. While enduring the ridicule of those he most desired to please, Claudius cultivated his survival plan, that of feigned and exacerbated disability. Claudius realized that while his family hated him, they needed him, vile as their souls were they needed someone they perceived as less than, they needed a scapegoat, and Claudius must have seen this deminished role as his only hope of survival. The Romans had brutal and nearly incomprehensible families. I am sure you are aware of the practice of exposing deformed children to be rid of the disgrace. Shame and loathing were the Roman reactions to disability. It is almost miraculous that this fate did not befall our Claudius, truly Fortuna graces his life. Claudius was by far the most fortunate member the Imperial family, only he could live with relative freedom. All others of his family, Germanicus his loving brother the exception, choose to ridicule Claudius, bound as they were to harsh morality, they did not realize the gift of obscurity they had bestowed. This obscurity alone allowed Claudius to live through both the political purges of Tiberius and the wanton depravity and sadistic terrors of Caligula. After almost all his peers had been eliminated in power struggles, Claudius remained. His disability alone made him the choice of the legions. In fury and anguish the execution of mad Caligula was committed, Little Boot! loved by the soldiers must die, a devils choice the legions faced indeed. In desperate rivalry the legions looked to Claudius, a man safe for all factions to choose, for no one feared him. Claudius, while hiding behind the curtain could not have known how well his plan had succeeded, how great his relief and how great his terror must have been upon that day he was thrust upward to the purple. So came to power one of my favorite Emperors, the thoughtful, intelligent, kind, drastically under-estimated, Claudius. In pursuit of a diagnosis of Claudius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Excellent post and deserving of your emancipation I would beg to differ on the assessment of Claudius' age however as evidence in any disease. Considering he was between 63 and 64 years, that is a relatively long life in comparison to the standard age of the time. Understandably he certainly didn't approach the longevity of some, even though a man in his social class had access to a better diet and was exposed to far less delibitating physical labor. However a man of this age, regardless of social condition, would still be considered as having lived a very long life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax Orbis Furius Posted November 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Thank you Primus. Freedom, ahhh. You are right that I am stretching the correlation between his age and MG. Considering that the prevailing wisdom as to his cause of death is poisoning, his disease, whatever it may have been, does not seem to have been a factor. I can further postulate, however, that due to the weariness his condition imposed, and weariness from years of humiliation, coupled with a reign he did not desire, he knew that a plot existed, and did nothing to prevent it. Perhaps, I can even label this behavior a proximate cause of his demise, a suicide by inaction. You are correct that 63-64 was old for the average human of Roman world, as I have seen life expectancy expressed at maximum of 45 years for Claudius era. Generally, ancient life expectancy was expressed as a curve: If you live to 10 you might see 25, live to 30 you might see 40, live to 50 you may see 60, etc. Claudius would have been at the high end of this spectrum, for the reasons you mentioned and the unusually long lives of his ancestors. I am reaching I know, but if you apply this same formula to Claudius, it if possible to say, that; If Claudius did not have MG he would have lived to 75, extreme old age. I am certainly stretching, but hey! I am a Free Roman Citizen now! Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 It strikes me that estimations of Claudius seem to ebb and flow with the times. He was certainly superior to his predecesser and successor, and in attempting to raise the level of political discourse to-- relatively-- more open levels, but suffers from his weaknesses in his familial life that may have led to Nero's ascension. His dependence on freedman for advisors seem to have made him a target as well, although it was a very clever method of insuring their loyalty to him. The tragedy is the loss of his histories of the Etruscans and Carthage as well as his autobiography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman wargamer Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Claudius was severely underestimated by all. This saved his life. During the many radical, violent purges after the death of Augustus, Claudius was overlooked as insignificant, an idiot, below even the lowest slave in intelligence. This is patently false, far from the true intellect of Claudius as could be. Claudius was not disabled mentally in the slightest. to live long is sign that everyone accepted you, the patrician and the legion, and manage them well. rw He was certainly superior to his predecesser . Virgil1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 The difficulty with Claudius was his apparant blindness towards Messalina and his willingness to defer to Agrippina (as well as other freedmen in his imperial court). Of course, this complete lack of judgement (quite like Tiberius and his semi retirement to Capri) ended up giving the world Nero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Good write. I didnt know much about Cladius before. Thanks =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tribunician power Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 I partially disagree with your assessment of Claudius. During his reign his freedman Narcissuss accumulated the largest private fortune ever recorded in Roman history. I believe this shows who was pulling the strings and who was the puppet. Though I will agree with you that he was not as dense as everyone believed for there are speeches recorded that are attributed to him but I believe he was a minor player in his reign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plautus Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Interesting piece about Claudius. How do you then answer Suetonius and other writers who played up his being a simpleton? Seneca wrote that ode on Claudius being deified "The Pumpkinification of CLaudius". Seutonius Claudius:38 Instead of keeping quiet about his stupidity, Claudius explained in a few short speeches, that it had been a mere mask for the benefit of Caligula.....Nobody believed him however..." I am a fan of Robert Graves but I am curious how you'd answer these Roman writers who all seem pretty consistent on their opnion of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Germanicus Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Interesting piece about Claudius. How do you then answer Suetonius and other writers who played up his being a simpleton? Seneca wrote that ode on Claudius being deified "The Pumpkinification of CLaudius". Seutonius Claudius:38 Instead of keeping quiet about his stupidity, Claudius explained in a few short speeches, that it had been a mere mask for the benefit of Caligula.....Nobody believed him however..." I am a fan of Robert Graves but I am curious how you'd answer these Roman writers who all seem pretty consistent on their opinion of him. You've got to remember that Seneca was interested in surviving/prospering under Nero. His number one job then was to glorify Nero's reign, and discredit the previous one. I doubt Nero's opinion of his adopted father was a stellar one. With regard to the words of Seutonius, I think many Romans would have construed Claudius' willingness to be led as a sign of low intelligence. I however cannot accept that he was defficient in this area. Weak perhaps, as PP mentions with his blindness to the crimes of the likes of Messalina, Agrippina, and his powerfull freedmen, but not stupid. I do not believe a stupid man could have ruled the Empire for as long as he did. It wasn't just dumb luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 On a prosaic note , many powerful people have undertaken great things but been blind to a spouses' shortcomings, and not the first to be deceived by a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segestan Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Ave! Claudius was severely underestimated by all. This saved his life. During the many radical, violent purges after the death of Augustus, Claudius was overlooked as insignificant, an idiot, below even the lowest slave in intelligence. This is patently false, far from the true intellect of Claudius as could be. Claudius was not disabled mentally in the slightest. The Romans judged people on visible accomplishments, glory, victory, and the achievement of more and greater political achievements, public fame. This cycle of achievements was never ending, to Roman nobles it was always the next glorious act that was sought after, too never stop striving, never reach satisfaction. This psychology of externalized self-esteem caused every person to misjudge Claudius because they could not picture him as a soldier, statesman, senator, and orator. Locked in a culture dominated by exclusionary social warfare, no Roman could visualize him in any position open to a man of his social rank. This was a great shame to the Roman mind, for what else could a nobleman do? To actually work was a concept totally vile to the Roman nobility, this left Claudius with no options but private study, far from his rightful place in Imperial politics, lucky for him. His stammer and weakness of body allowed him to be one of the few Emperors wise enough to hold the office, he did not waste his days with endless social maneuvering but in study with his great tutors. While enduring the ridicule of those he most desired to please, Claudius cultivated his survival plan, that of feigned and exacerbated disability. Claudius realized that while his family hated him, they needed him, vile as their souls were they needed someone they perceived as less than, they needed a scapegoat, and Claudius must have seen this deminished role as his only hope of survival. The Romans had brutal and nearly incomprehensible families. I am sure you are aware of the practice of exposing deformed children to be rid of the disgrace. Shame and loathing were the Roman reactions to disability. It is almost miraculous that this fate did not befall our Claudius, truly Fortuna graces his life. Claudius was by far the most fortunate member the Imperial family, only he could live with relative freedom. All others of his family, Germanicus his loving brother the exception, choose to ridicule Claudius, bound as they were to harsh morality, they did not realize the gift of obscurity they had bestowed. This obscurity alone allowed Claudius to live through both the political purges of Tiberius and the wanton depravity and sadistic terrors of Caligula. After almost all his peers had been eliminated in power struggles, Claudius remained. His disability alone made him the choice of the legions. In fury and anguish the execution of mad Caligula was committed, Little Boot! loved by the soldiers must die, a devils choice the legions faced indeed. In desperate rivalry the legions looked to Claudius, a man safe for all factions to choose, for no one feared him. Claudius, while hiding behind the curtain could not have known how well his plan had succeeded, how great his relief and how great his terror must have been upon that day he was thrust upward to the purple. So came to power one of my favorite Emperors, the thoughtful, intelligent, kind, drastically under-estimated, Claudius. In pursuit of a diagnosis of Claudius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil61 Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 I don' think Claudius was stupid, remember he wrote histories of Carthage and the Estruscans although they're lost to us. Reading Seutonius he does seem to have some odd idiosyncrasies and could be very arbitrary. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned his cruelty; among other things he'd had thirty Senators and a couple of hundred equestrians put to death and during games would condemn men on the spot, throwing them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tribunician power Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Caudius did SEEM to understand how inefficient the senatorial system could be and appointed non senatorial officials in formerly magistrate jobs which concerned the well being of Rome. He then removed power from the senate for instituting trials and had them conducted by himself and his advisors. He also had the willingness to expend a large sum of money on a harbor for grain shipments on the Tiber. These choices certainly helped day to day Roman life but it remains in question as to who's decisions these were. This is not to say that Augustus did not rely on his many advisors, however Claudius' advisors were not of senatorial rank and it is possible that his reliance on them may have been overplayed by a jealous senate because of this and the general concensus that he was short of intelligence. I doubt this idea though simply because of the vast fortunes his freedmen gained and the power they achieved extended beyond that of most senators, before or after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 however Claudius' advisors were not of senatorial rank and it is possible that his reliance on them may have been overplayed by a jealous senate because of this and the general concensus that he was short of intelligence. I doubt this idea though simply because of the vast fortunes his freedmen gained and the power they achieved extended beyond that of most senators, before or after. I agree with the general assessment of Claudius, however, the last line confuses me just a bit. How would his freedmen assessing vast fortunes actually indicate that Claudius did not defer to them or grant them great power. It would seem to me that this evidence lends itself towards the notion that Claudius did indeed defer to these men and grant them great freedom to assemble these fortunes and wield power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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