Roman Unions?

[Tobias]

G'day All

After watching the union action all over Australia for the past days, this question hit me; did Roman labourers, civil servants, soldiers etc. have unions (or their ancient equivalents) to ensure their "rights" in their chosen occupations? Did the ideals of stopping work for better rights exist back then? I'd be glad to hear your opinions on the subject

[Favonius Cornelius]

They did not have much in the way of unified political groups. They did form unions after a fashion, but the only ones we know of deal with making sure your body is disposed of well after you die, burial collectives. I bet there were collectives that cooperated certainly, but the guild I believe largely was a medieval creation.

[P.Clodius]

Not unions per se but guilds, the precursor to unions I guess. Guilds were banned at one point during the late republic by Sulla I think. They were reintroduced during the tribuneship of my namesake and used as organized political muscle that were later countered by Milo's gladiators that led to the "Mob Rule" period.

[Pertinax]

Would the Collegia perhaps be an appropriate body to look at here? The "local " association of your particular crossroads they certainly had aspects of mob/political action about them ( though I risk being vetoed here as many were also "dining " clubs open to persons free/unfree or in trade specialisms).

[P.Clodius]

To my knowlege collegiality meant political counter parts. i.e. 2 consuls, 4 praetors, etc.... No one position having political monopoly.

Edited November 15, 2005 by P.Clodius

[Favonius Cornelius]

There are many shades of gray in Rome's Republic when it comes to groups in my opinion. Would we then consider the clientele of an important businessman also to be a 'union'? All depends on how you make the definition.

 

If you make the definition of a union to be a group formed for the express purpose of promotion of the group's political aims and improved working conditions, I'm afraid they just did not exist for a variety of reasons. I think one of those reasons was the patron-client networks that cemented relations between workers and patrons.

 

As far as Clodius and his gang...well that is what they were, a gang organized by a politician and not by the people. I don't see what worker's group they could have represented.

[Pertinax]

Favonius has a very good point here, a critical theme running through any of the works on food and pleasure is that if you throw a dinner party you dont just get a select bunch of people turning up. An invitation to a man of power and influence would result in the possibility of numerous clients of various status arriving and their hangers on ,freedmen and slaves. I know Frateres that you dont want another excursion into gorging and feasting but a most important consideration was to make sure all your potential guests got something according to their rank -the Collegia attempted to fulfill this role for those not so fortunate, so we have certain "spheres of influence" either by direct patron/client relationships or the emulation of same.

[P.Clodius]

As far as Clodius and his gang...well that is what they were, a gang organized by a politician and not by the people. I don't see what worker's group they could have represented.

 

True, they were a gang but they were legitimate guilds, guild of bakers, guild of blacksmiths etc...

 

Wikipedia says

the old clubs or guilds of workmen were re-established

 

I have a book (the only book on the subject of Clodius. The Patrician Tribune). In it is listed his entire legislative agenda, I'll dig up the name of the law. Lex Clodii something something. When Clodius repealed the ban he made thousands his clientela Smart move for a radical populares

Edited November 15, 2005 by P.Clodius

[Favonius Cornelius]

I have a book (the only book on the subject of Clodius. The Patrician Tribune). In it is listed his entire legislative agenda, I'll dig up the name of the law. Lex Clodii something something. When Clodius repealed the ban he made thousands his clientela Smart move for a radical populares

 

I'm curious to hear more on lex Clodii and what its stipulations were. Tell us more about those groups he had with him.

 

Just, this would still be situational politics under a situational leader. I would ask if these groups under Clodius had any staying power after him, because if not then they sort of come off as again clients under a politician with an agenda rather than the independent union. I seriously doubt Clodius had labor rights as his primary objective.

[P.Clodius]

You've hit the nail right on the head. They indeed had no staying power. After Clodius' death they went and petitioned Pompei to become sole consul to end the civil strife (which of course led to Caesar being declared an enemy of the state), something that would have made Clodius spin in his grave. Roman poilitics were based on Amici, clientela, and of course enhancing ones dignitas. Hence it tended to be a very personal affair. I will dig through that book at some point to list his legislative accomplishments.

[Virgil61]

 

My knowledge of Roman guilds parallels P. Clodius' answer to you.

 

I did find the following paper (it's a pdf), if you're inclined to read these things go to page 10. The author seems to say that professional organizations were fairly common and included guilds of entertainers as well as a religious aspect. According to him guilds seem to have been around in the Greek and Egyptian worlds before the Roman conquests.

 

Greco-Roman Philosophic, Religious and Voluntary Organizations

Edited November 16, 2005 by Virgil61

[Favonius Cornelius]

I think I have too freely used both the words 'guild' and 'union.' I believe one is a collection for the purpose of sharing knowledge and skill and the other a political group. I believe the political group did not exist. Guilds as you say, perhaps another matter.

[Germanicus]

I believe one is a collection for the purpose of sharing knowledge and skill and the other a political group. I believe the political group did not exist. Guilds as you say, perhaps another matter.

 

It's interesting - some Union like activity may have taken place then in Guilds.

 

Like if you had a guild at Rome for Builders for example - would they not sometimes all agree to charge the same rate to customers ? (Like an ancient version of a wage fixing agreement in a modern union)

 

Just a thought..?

[P.Clodius]

As promised here is some of Clodius' legislation. Righthand page quarter of the way down.

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-dgra/0693.html

[Favonius Cornelius]

Hm I can't quite tell what the effect of the Clodian legislation would be for workers from those definitions. Some have no definition.

 

The Ancient Library: cool new resource though, I've never used it.